How Much Will You Pay? Part One
posted by citizen.K on Sunday, January 11th, 2009 / 
Print & Hang in the Barn
The thought of buying a new horse is overwhelming, exhausting, and downright scary. Luckily, I am not in the market for a new horse.
But even in this economy, people are buying and selling horses. Believe it or not, the high end of the sport horse market is still seeing inconceivable prices.
This all hit me, a few days ago, when I received an anonymous phone call from someone just looking for “advice”. I was told they were referred to me by a friend of a friend, and the caller set up her predicament in the most innocent way imaginable.
“Do you have time, to just talk for a bit, about the horse world?”
“Sure.”
“I have a question, well a few questions. I’m just…perplexed.”
“Okay…”
Understand, I didn’t know who this person was and had no idea what she might have wanted to know.
And I guess this isn’t the first time this has happened, either. There’s an evil force at work in the world that propels otherwise inconspicuous souls - strangers even - to dump their tragedies (perceived or otherwise) in MY lap. Groceries store cashiers. Co-workers. Fellow horse boarders. Friends of course.
And then this lady.
Open minded is my defensive approach to the aggressive, abstract problem-haver. In the realm of horses, tears could mean anything from someone being frustrated with their inability to ride, or them seeing an improper saddle fit as a metaphor for their failed marriage. Or maybe the people are just looking for someone to sympathize (and I’m a hard sell) because…maybe their horse has weird allergies, or there’s a situation revolving around unethical performance injections, or some soap opera drama regarding a trainer liking someone else better suddenly. And it’s to be expected any and all queries directed my way are equally severe, dramatic, and high on the emergency register to the respective person.
So on the other end of my phone, I just waited patiently to find out, exactly, what this case could be about.
“How much are some blankets and a bridle worth?”
“Ummm, well, it depends on the blankets, what kind, how many, their condition. And with the bridle, same thing, condition and brand/kind.”
“Well, could you give a range?”
Normally in such a situation, I’d be turning the lights out. But this woman’s obvious unfamiliarity with these subjects brought about an otherwise non-existent morbid curiosity to the throws of her predicament. What was she really getting at?
“Lets assume it’s for blankets, all Rambo, the most expensive, and lets say it’s a high quality bridle - retails new for $600. I would say used, even in good condition, all that stuff could come in anywhere from $800-$1200.”
I thought it was a fair response.
“Okay, so not $4000? They wouldn’t be worth $4000?”
“Uh, no.”
Then I start getting the story.
New to riding as an adult, 6-12 months in. My guess was mid 30’s to mid 40’s. She was looking to buy a horse, had a trainer, and was - in her words - “confused”. She said a horse in the barn became “for sale” and the horse was getting “pushed” on her (my word). She said the seller and trainer were claiming it was a really good deal because there was $4000 worth of equipment (just blankets and a bridle) included. Also she didn’t really understand why she would have to pay a finders fee to the trainer when she learned about the horse being for sale from someone else in the barn.
“How did this trainer FIND the horse exactly?”
I thought it was a very good question.
She continued to tell me they were withholding information. She wanted to know what information she should feel was important. She told me about the age of the horse being blown off, and then changed.
“Is it wrong of me to want to know the age of the horse?”
“No. Of course you should be able to ask AND get an answer to the age of a horse you are buying.”
I was floored. It was amazing this woman is questioning her own logic. I explained she needed to be careful, make sure any questions she had were answered to her satisfaction, and told her also, to get a vetting on the horse.
Then she hit me with the kicker…
“I mean if I’m paying $125,000, I should be able to get more information about the horse I am buying.”
*choke* *gasp* *cough*
“Yes [cough], if you are paying $125, $1250, $12,500, or $125,000, you have a right to ask questions, get answers, and also decide NOT TO BUY.”
She asked about ethical practices and guidelines regarding horse sales.
“Hahahahahahahahahahah! Hahahahahahaahhah!” [fights back tears] “Hahahahahahah! Okay, what? Ethical horse sale practices? In the horse industry? Maahahahwhahahahahahhahahah! Ahahahahahahahahha!” [pees pants]
“Seriously, nothing?”
What else could I do? Being someone not familiar with the horse industry - and holding cash- was like being a mouse thrown in a crazy cat hoarder’s house.
“RUN FOR YOUR LIFE.”
“Really?”
“Yes, my suggestion for you would be to find a different hobby. I’m not joking. I think it’s fabulous you’ve found horse riding as an adult, but frankly, in this industry, you’re swimming with sharks, and they see a giant bulls eye painted on your forehead.”
I told her to follow her gut. She was grateful, the phone call ended, and I hoped she was inclined enough to walk from this sale.
Outside of the fact that $100,000+ horse deals were still going on like nothing (I thought even rich people lost money in 2008, right?), the unethical practices rendered upon this new “prey” really struck me. The concept of “ethical” horse sale practices cyclically appear in the horse media, but usually those articles read more like jokes. I mean, “horse industry ethics” is an oxymoron. The horse industry, by definition, is unethical.
I can’t tell you how many very nice and very wealthy people I’ve met who’ve found horses as adults, or got back into horses as adults, to only leave the sport a few short years later after being taken by one too many swine.
Does that mean there isn’t ONE honest horseman/horsewoman out there? No, but they are few and far between. Horse industry success comes with some amount of cutthroat behavior, and very few successful horse professionals have kept their nose clean.
Sure, it would be nice if we could clean the horse industry of the “bad seeds”, but there are just too many of them. And there are too many newbies who get in over their head, get taken, and then feel like they have to take the next person to get even.
There has to be a better method to traverse the messy practices of buying and selling horses. There has to be a better method to valuating horse worth beyond the seller asking, “how much will you pay?”
If there was a guide to navigating horse sale expectations, maybe that would help. Cars have their Kelly Blue Book, why not equines? It’s not as simple as formulas, or table valuations, and with a living creature involved, the variables add up. But at the very least, a horse sale guide would allow new comers to the sport a peak behind the walls of sale practices and leave them more informed and better prepared to spot and avoid the sharks.
This is part one of that guide.
In part two, we’ll venture into a horse industry staple that can only thrive off smoke and mirrors: the sale barn.
7 Responses to “How Much Will You Pay? Part One”
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January 22nd, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Dropping to my knees and thanking you for writing this article.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:49 pm
Thank you for writing this article. I am sure that part 2 will be equally as informative.
I am going to share my nightmare horse buying experience in hopes that those who read it will avoid making the same mistakes.
It all started about five years ago with the passing of my beloved first horse. Six months later I began my search for a new horse. My starting point was the man who my parents bought my first horse from. He seemed to have all of the right credentials. He was a trainer, horse show judge, and the owner of a large training facility. I also trusted this man because he was the one who found my first horse.
I told him that I was interested in a horse in the seven to ten year old age range. I wanted a horse with training; however, I also wanted one that would be around for many years. He ended up finding a three year old gelding. He stressed that the horse was greener than what I was looking for but he thought that he might work out for me. I agreed to take him for a test ride. I watched a trainer ride the horse and I was absolutely mesmerized by his effortless gaits. This horse had nearly perfect conformation. Next I took him for a ride. I was surprised at how well he listened. It was a challenging ride but only because I was out of riding shape. My Mom had accompanied me to serve as an extra set of eyes. She raised an excellent question: “do you think that he is too much horse for her?” He assured her that I would get back in shape quickly. Then my Mom came up with another option. She suggested the possibility of taking lessons with the horse for a while. The seller responded by saying that someone would buy the horse from underneath me (in hindsight, I should have pursued this option. I would have learned something from the lessons even if I didn’t buy that particular horse). After doing some serious thinking about this situation I decided to buy the horse as long as he passed the pre purchase exam.
I also dropped by to visit with the horse to see what he was like if I was the one doing all of the handling. He was a totally different horse. Instead of being led, he kept forging ahead and he even bit me a few times. Once cross tied, he chewed on the cross ties and was in constant motion. This is where I began to have my doubts about the horse. Perhaps he was more than I wanted to deal with. I quickly talked myself back into buying him. I reasoned that he was young and impressionable and that I had enough skills to train him properly.
At the beginning of the pre purchase exam, my vet discovered that the horse had a cataract in one of his eyes. I was very uncomfortable with this finding but my vet assured me that the horse had adapted well. And my vet also stressed that the horse liked me a lot and that we got along really well. I had known my vet for many years and I totally respected his opinion.
I bought the horse. The seller included some free training as part of the purchase package. I spent countless hours almost every day at the barn riding, working on his ground manners, and I also worked with him in the round pen to teach him how to lounge. After the free training expired, I brought the horse home. As a recent college graduate, I did not have limitless funds to pour into the horse’s training. But I did have a lot of spare time to work with him on my own.
We hit one bump in the road shortly after he arrived at home. I quickly found out that he didn’t know how to stand still for mounting from the ground. This is something that I was unaware of because my trainer usually held him or at least stood next to him. I began to think about selling him again but then reasoned that he hadn’t been taught to stand still. Afterall, at the training facility, the trainers often hopped on the horses while they were walking away. I enlisted the help of my Dad and we taught him to stand still by backing him every time he tried to walk off. He eventually decided that it was less effort to stand still. After about a month of intense work, he stood reliably for mounting. And his outbursts under saddle were few and far between. Every now and then he would try to see if he could get away with something under saddle, (bolting, backing when not asked to, or refusing to back when asked to) but I never let him get the upper hand. Many months passed and I was very pleased with the horse’s progress.
One ride changed my opinion of the horse forever. I was almost ready to end our ride. He had done really well on this particular day. I was going to let him lope a little as a reward (he loved to move at speed) and then call it quits. I was totally caught off guard when he went into an extremely athletic bucking session. I managed to ride out about three or four bucks. I thought that he was about to stop and that is when he managed to unseat me with another buck. As I lay on the ground, I watched him calmly walk away and turn around to face me. Our eyes met and the look on his face said it all, “you are exactly where I want you… off my back!” I was too injured to remount and no trainer was available to help me that day. My trainer friend instructed me via telephone to tie the horse in his stall so that he would not associate bucking with a reward.
I then called my vet (who had trained horses as a younger man)and relayed the details of my last ride. He advised me to return the horse to the seller. He stressed that the seller would try to convince me to put the horse in training. He told me that I should only accept the seller taking the horse back. He stressed that this horse would always be a professional’s horse. I called the seller and fully disclosed the horse’s severe behaviorial problems. The seller did exactly what my vet had predicted. Only when I asked for his help to find a horse with more training, did he agree to take my horse back.
I envisioned that the horse would be retrained as a show horse and that he would be eventually sold to an experienced rider. Unfortunately, my vision was far from the reality. One day, I was preparing to ride my new horse when I was approached by the seller. He told me that he was going to show my previous horse to potential buyers (the parents of a teenager/beginner rider) and that I was not to say anything to them. He stressed that they would keep the horse in training. After this exchange, I realized that this man was nothing more than a horse dealer. This horse was sold to a new rider approximately one month after I returned him.
The teenager’s parents paid for approximately one year’s worth of training. Then the teen decided to move the horse to a boarding facility. Once out of training, riding accidents soon followed. The young rider called me to ask for a trainer referral. I suggested a trainer who had at least 40 years of experience. He would not mount the horse, refused to take any payment for his time, and advised the teen to sell the horse. Instead of following this advice, she opted to undertake the horse’s training on her own. The last time she had ridden him, he had thrown her. At least six months had elapsed since this bucking incident.
She decided to apply dog training techniques(clicker training) to this horse. The advice she received from “professional” clicker trainers was given over the telephone or via the internet. These trainers never worked with the horse in person. This young woman eventually decided to sell the horse. When no one showed an interest, she donated him to a horse rescue. She now claims to be an experienced horse trainer yet she never studied under a professional horse trainer nor does she hold a degree in equine studies.
I’m fairly certain that the issues with this horse will continue. The young woman viewed the horse as a pet and failed to honestly evaluate his future as a riding horse. Unfortunately, this horse is now in the hands of another amateur.
January 25th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
I was so focused on writing a concise summary of the events that took place over five years that I accidentally left out one important detail.
Before I purchased the young horse, I inquired as to why the horse was for sale. The seller told me that the horse’s previous owner was an older woman with health challenges. The young horse was too energetic for her so she decided to trade him in for a finished show horse. I thought that this seemed like a reasonable explanation so I did not probe further. If I had just asked one more question, I would have more than likely avoided this entire catastophre. I should have asked how long the horse had been in professinal training. I made a huge mistake by making an assumption about the horse’s training. I knew that this facility’s professionals started horses just before they turned two. So I assumed that this three old horse had about one year’s worth of professional training.
I didn’t find out the real situation until after I purchased the horse. One day I met the daughter of his previous owner. She was a real talker. I saw this as an opportunity to learn about my horse’s background so I mostly listened and I also asked an occassional question. This young woman owned the horse before her mother. She bought him as an eleven month old. She did a lot of barn hopping with him and she eventually gave him to her mother. This horse had not been at this training facility until he was taken there for the trade. It became very clear that she was the one who “trained” him. After watching her struggle to ride her mother’s well trained horse, I knew that she did a poor job “training” my new horse. This young horse had not been ridden by a professional until just before I purchased him.
For some strange reason I did not react to this news. I didn’t even question the seller. It was an explanation for the horse’s behaviorial problems. I was still very interested in working with a project horse. Another negative side effect of this news was that it caused me to be less critical of the horse’s behaviorial problems. After all it wasn’t his fault that he didn’t receive the proper training.
If I had found this information out before I bought the horse, I am quite certain that I would have had a different reaction. I definitely would have passed on this horse.
My advice for those of you who are considering buying your first horse is to ask many questions about a prospective horse’s past including:
Why is this horse for sale?
Has this horse ever injured anyone?
Is this horse up to date on his/her vaccinations?
Does he/she have any medical issues?
Does he/she have any vices or behaviourial problems?
Is this horse being ridden on a regular basis (define regular)?
How much professional training does this horse have?
Is this horse currently being trained by a professional?
There is no guarantee that the seller will give honest answers. If the seller tries to avoid any of your questions, however, this is a red flag that it is time to move on. Just because a horse is for sale, you are under no obligation to buy it.
February 1st, 2009 at 6:34 pm
I like Honesty’s story. I also like this article because I think it’s really important to point out that, while a lot of people who sell horses are very charismatic and likable, they are not always honest. I know very few honest horse people and even fewer that I would consider buying a horse from. When I was a teenager, I spent a lot of time around people who would do or say ANYTHING just to get a horse sold or get you to give them money somehow. Most of these people were the sort of people that you would meet once and think “Gee, this person is really nice!” and then, after knowing them for a few months realize that they were nothing but spineless worms. They answer to no moral code and will do anything to make a buck.
Here’s my rule of thumb: forget nice. Stick to the meanies. All the decent horse people I’ve ever met were not nice. They are usually sarcastic, blunt, and entirely unsurprised by just about everything that happens. They usually swear a lot and yell a lot, and you tend to get the impression that they don’t care about you at all. But here’s the thing: they will always be honest. And, to me, that’s all I care about. I don’t care if the people in my barn are my friends. I can go to a bar and make friends. I go to the barn to ride and I want to ride with people who will be honest.
I paid a LOT of money for a LOT of lame horses when I was young. Usually, they only failed one thing on the vet check and the vet always said “it’s probably not going to affect him at all” and it ALWAYS did. I was forever buying supplements and injections and painkillers and acupuncture and on and on. And they were all very nice horses, but nice doesn’t go very far when you pay for a 2 week show and have to scratch every class because you can’t get your horse sound. Now I have decided that I don’t really care how nice the horse is. I care if they vet clean. If their body is fine, their brain will eventually get with the program. And I’m testing that theory with my current horse, who has proven himself to NEVER be lame (even after weeks of being ridden and lunged into the ground every day), but has also proven himself to be a complete turd.
April 27th, 2009 at 8:30 am
My first reaction to the lady on the phone is “How did you get this rich and be this dumb?” but actually here in Wyoming the story is frequently the same, the numbers are just much much lower. I get calls everyday from people, usually women, who have bought a horse that is out of their control level. These ladies want me to take this horse and train it to be the horse they thought they bought. I often tell them that I can ride that horse now, but they can’t and they will not be able to much better after I have smoothed him out. the problem is not the horse but the rider and the same goes for the deal when they bought the horse. The problems are not generally with the horse but with the buyer.
Good article, it was forwarded by me by Phil Tragear; who I think would agree that the first thing these buyers need before a horse are some classes or training. hang around some horse people, find somone you trust and listen to them.
April 27th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Honesty writes an interesting story, ending with good advice: “ask many questions about a prospective horse’s past.” But I would also stress that before you buy, you should ask YOURSELF a lot of questions. I can’t tell you how many people I have watched buy a horse that completely doesn’t match what they SAID they wanted. And guess what: they got a horse they didn’t want! Dream a little, but be realistic about what you plan to do with the horse, and how often - the green horse who needs work 5 days a week is not for the weekend warrior. Be brutally honest about your actual skills and experience - green-and-green equals black-and-blue. WRITE IT DOWN THEN STICK TO WHAT YOU WANT. A search for the right horse can take a while, REMIND YOURSELF OFTEN OF WHAT YOU REALLY WANT. You will be responsible for that horse whether it fits your needs or not.
April 27th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
You have struck a cord. I just bought a QT. Horse (big)That I really didn’t want or need but because he was pretty. I ride gaited horses but bought this one to be able to ride with my Brother. After a week or so he seems to have some sort of lameness that reaccures. He also belonged to a women who let him do what he wanted to do. He threw me last week because I relaxed and stopped paying attention. He also does not know how to lunge so I have difficulty moving his feet properly. At any rate he is fir sale(at a loss) because I am to old to fight every time.