Citizen Horse

By ^^horselover^^ on Apr 21, 2008 | Reply

I thought I read somewhere that a GrandPrix dressage rider used clicker training for her horses. I can’t find it now though.

There are a group of people that do clicker training with their horses at my barn. All the geldings do get erections and that is really strange.

I was gonna try it on my horse but my trainer said that he is already too mouthy so I’m not even allowed to give him carrots or any other treats from my hand. Only in his feed bucket.

By Naturalhorse on Apr 21, 2008 | Reply

You obviously don’t know anything about clicker training. It is proven that it does not cause horses to be mouthy. Clicker training is a great experience for both the horse and the owner to bond and have a rewarding experience every time they work with each other.

By Lori Kern on May 2, 2008 | Reply

Im not sure what to say here because i see it as a EXTRA thing to teach your horse AFTER you have a TRUE BOND! so i feel with the right training it could be very effective!

By Laurie Luck, CPDT on May 29, 2008 | Reply

You don’t have to use food in clicker training. You can use *anything* the animal likes. It can be play time, it can be touch, it can be games. The reinforcer *does not* need to be food.

And you can very easily teach your horse to work away from you *even if* you are reinforcing the behavior with food. It’s super simple — the horse looks away, you click and treat (remember, doesn’t have to be food, but in this example, I’m talking about if you are indeed using food). So the horse turns his head away and you click and deliver a tiny piece of carrot (or whatever your horse loves).

He turns his head again, this time a smidge more than the last; click and treat again. If the horse doesn’t turn his head away again, no click and treat. But chances are, the horse is enjoying this new little game and will try to get you to click. So he turns his head further. You’ll click and treat.

After a few minutes of this, your horse is getting the hang of this game and actually takes a step away. Click and treat. Before you know it, your horse is 5 feet away, waiting for the click. You can continue this indefinitely — well, so long as your horse isn’t so far away he can’t hear the click!

You can also teach your horse to target a tennis ball at the end of a stick (or whatever). (The horse touches the object with his nose.) You can then use that target to move the horse around without touching him or without having any equipment on the horse. Targeting is also a useful tool for horses that spook at the sight of novel object — teach them to touch the object with his nose and lots of the scariness of that object goes away because you’ve given the horse a way to interact with this “scary” object (a way that’s been reinforced in the past, so it makes it easier for the horse to “believe you” that it’s ok to touch this thing).

It’s not uncommon for people to believe that food has to be the reinforcer or that food will kill training. Read Alexandra Kurland’s clicker training book for horses. It’s tough to imagine a clicker working on a horse, but I’ve seen it. I’ve done it. It’s pretty cool.

By Laurie Luck, CPDT on May 29, 2008 | Reply

Forgot to add this link, for anyone who wants to look at clicker training in depth a little more: http://www.clickertraining.com

This is the section devoted to horses: http://www.clickertraining.com/taxonomy/term/3

There are lots of good articles there about clicker training, clicker myths, and lots of good info!

Take a look around and see if there’s any of it you might want to try (or think about trying!) with your horse. You don’t have to jump in the deep end right away, you can try a little bit of it at first.

By Suzanne on Jun 3, 2008 | Reply

I usually agree wholeheartedly with Citizen K, but here I beg to differ - Clicker Training has worked wonders with my gelding with nary ONE erection.

I’ve had this Morgan gelding since he turned four. He is bold and calm, but he knew almost nothing. He is extremely intelligent - everyone comments on it - and he was getting bored and wanted to “liven” things up. He didn’t mean any harm, but needless to say, I needed to give him something constructive to do with his brain power.

Clicker Training was PERFECT. This horse wants - no he NEEDS - to offer behavior, to express himself. With Clicker Training, he was motivated to figure out what behavior I wanted him to offer - and he did, almost instantly.

I’ve been doing this for the last ummm… four years or so, and he almost never takes a wrong step. And if he does, I just ignore it and he busts his buns to figure out what he did wrong and how to fix it. All this for a sliver of carrot!

When I first got him, he wasn’t as respectful of my space as I preferred. Boy, he is now. Those wheels are always turning, trying to figure out what will please me - even if it’s only standing still. I’ve never taught him tricks - just everyday stuff.

Actually, I hardly use the actual carrot slivers under saddle any more - just when he does something really outstanding or brand new for him.

I don’t find it any problem having a small pack of carrot chips. He NEVER tries to grab it - or anything else. He knows that will never get him what he wants. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a win-win situation for both of us, and we have a wonderful time together.

By Kay on Jun 5, 2008 | Reply

It sounds like some people have had success with clicker training done properly, but so many people do it improperly and there are so many non-clicker-training methods of training horses that also work effectively enough to nullify clicker-training in most cases. I have seen it work time and again for training horses to do tricks–like nod yes or no, lift their feet and give kisses. Under saddle is where I think it’s silly. To get a horse “on the bit”, all one should need is a properly schooled leg, a properly schooled hand and a bit that correctly fits the strength and mouth of the horse. When the horse is moving correctly, the hand and leg should be still and the horse should be free of leg and hand pressure. That in itself should be a reward. It’s the tried-and-true “bug em and leave em alone” that horse trainers have been using for centuries in almost all riding disciplines. You apply pressure when the horse is resisting and then remove pressure when they respond.
That being said, I think people should do whatever works for their horse and if clicker training is the only thing that works, then do it. I have seen more mouthy horses with clicker training than with no clicker training and I think it’s due in part to the fact that middle-aged first-time horse owners who view their horses more as dogs than as horses. They don’t understand that they are supposed to not reward mouthy behavior because they are too inexperienced to discern the mouthy behavior from the non-mouthy behavior. They also think that food reinforcement is the only option. These are the same people who think obedience training is a valid way to control a dominant-aggressive dog. They don’t understand that just because the dog sits doesn’t mean the dog respects you. As soon as the food is gone, the dog will surely bite someone. They need to be rolled and pinned–which is an uncomfortable experience for all parties involved but definitely necessary. In the same respect, some horses with bad ground manners do it because they are bossing their owners around. Those horses need a nose chain and a firm-but-not-physically-damaging beating.
The way I see it, I could spend a month clicker training my horse to walk properly on a lead line or I can go get a crop and a nose chain and jerk down on his nose a few times and whack him on the chest a few times and be done.

By Suzanne on Jun 6, 2008 | Reply

Everyone - I have to say that I find some of the anti-clicker comments insulting and demeaning. If you haven’t read Alexandra Kurland’s clicker training book for horses, and you haven’t seen the results of clicker training PROPERLY done, then, please, don’t be sarcastic and write us off as “trick trainers” - I’ve never taught ANY horse ANY tricks - or “middle aged first time horsey owner idiots” - personally, I’ve owned horses for over 30 years.

Speaking your mind is great, but let’s can the sarcasm, please.

By IceRyder on Jun 6, 2008 | Reply

It’s not an erection, it’s dropping from relaxation.

By Meg Francoeur on Jun 6, 2008 | Reply

I use a little bit of both, but use a lot of clicker training on my abuse case. Alexandra Kurland trained a miniature horse to be a guide horse for a blind woman using only clicker training, so to state that no horses can be performance horses or do anything other than tricks is simply not so. You obviously have never seen a clicker trained horse in action nor do you have even a modicum of understanding in how it works. You are making statements that you can’t back up. There are plenty of horses out there doing jobs and doing them well that are clicker trained. I’ve had to fix a lot more horses that were trained using negative, abusive methods than I ever have with a horse that was trained using positive methods. I’ll take a horse who tries to learn and tries to offer you what you want, then one that is sour, beaten down and only working to keep from being hit.

By Julie on Jun 6, 2008 | Reply

Wow, you are a very narrow minded person - what makes you so right? - cannot see your bio here anywhere? Me? I am a clicker trainer, am middle aged and have owned horses all my life and my family is in the TB business..and have been using clicker for over 15 years - I am amazed to hear it is the ‘new’ thing! I am also a lawyer and a psychologist; so some may think I can at least read reasonably well and I am not ignorant and would not make negative comments on any style of training or training aids if they were used correctly. I have seen allot of bad training- probably even some you subscribe to, but I would not suggest that the method is bad for all - only those who do not use it correctly.

Shame you dont get out and about a little more and see true clicker trainers in action. Sorry, I dont run my horse up and down a beach- but if I wanted to I could - without excessive negative reinforcement. You also seem to have missed the point about clicker - it is not a ’system’ as such it is a marker signal to tell your horse that he/she is on the right path…I dont use treats to ride, I only use treats now and again for fun (gee sorry that must also be a contradiction in your mind, that my horses actually are happy and dont mug and are not mouthy). My horses reward for doing what I ask is a rub on the wither…all taught with clicker training. Oops and yes my geldings do ‘drop’…not an erection LOL- just a sign to tell me they are relaxed. Why dont you go and see a real clicker trainer in action and report on that - give your audience the pros and cons of all manners of training so they can make informed judgments about all things horsey. Of course I am assuming you have the best intentions for horses - why knock something that works in the right hands - oh and in case you dont know - one of our best Aussie riders who represents our country in the para olympics is a clicker trainer- last time I saw her she was riding nice and round ..you might want to check that out.

BTW thats for getting clicker training out there! Dont think I will be visiting your site again.

By terry pride apdt#1827 on Jun 6, 2008 | Reply

interesting that it takes the writer so long to ridicule something that is used in captive-handling and husbandry around the world.
if it really doesn’t work, why do keepers + zoo-vets all over the globe rely on this OC-training to keep them + the animal-patient safe + calm?

having taught parrots, rabbits, dogs, cats, horses, cows, sheep, a donkey, and a couple of crows, i can say it works fine for me. also box-turtles, iguanas + tegus.

and i too have had equines for over 20-yrs - no cute ‘lets teach the pony to pull the hankie from the pocket’ tricks, here!

By Zen Horsemanship on Jun 6, 2008 | Reply

“A clicker trained horse is not going to excel in any athletic discipline.”

One will have to tell my 100 mile Competitive Trail Stallion this since he is clicker trained and loves it. And, also to his son who also competed long distance and is now my best demo horse for clicker training.

What an interesting way to gather email addresses because so many people are sure to comment. I’ve just returned from a clicker training tour and the more people see the more they love it. To find out who uses it and how go to the articles
section of http://www.zenhorsemanship.com You will be surprised at who you find there.

Clicker training is not about food, it’s about the marker and the conversation with the horse that creates the true unity only spoken about by the old masters.

Dolores
http://www.zenhorsemanship.com

By terry pride apdt#1827 on Jun 6, 2008 | Reply

sorry, i missed this statement from KAY -

”These are the same people who think obedience training is a valid way to control a dominant-aggressive dog. They don’t understand that just because the dog sits doesn’t mean the dog respects you. As soon as the food is gone, the dog will surely bite someone. They need to be rolled and pinned–which is an uncomfortable experience for all parties involved but definitely necessary.”

BTW, kay, i have been working with aggro-dogs since 1985 - both dog-aggro + human-aggro, with and without bite-histories. i don’t do ‘OBEDIENCE training’ with them -
i do B-Mod.

to date, i have YET to *roll* my first dog - aggressive or any other. dogs =offer= an exposed-belly as a freely presented signal - or for petting (shrug). i have rubbed many a belly - and NEVER rolled a dog to get there!

trust is an essential part of re-training an aggro-dog.
aggression is most-often rooted in fear - or at least uncertainty, anxiety, sumthin.

rolling, shouting, choking, shocking, kicking, helicoptering, body-slamming, prongs, chokes, pinching, ear-sandwiches, toe-nooses, smacks, forced-retrieves and other highly aversive handling (i refuse to dignify those practices as ‘training’, which is teaching) are never used when i train…
ESPECIALLY in the case of aggro-dogs, i want them to relax.

in the case of horses, when i am working with a 1200 to 1400# animal, i don’t want to pi** them off just because my great-grandad did it this way - plenty of other great-grandads used kind + clear methods.
they didn’t use a clicker, but they didn’t (as U suggest) beat their horses, either.
(Quote: ”Those horses need a nose chain and a firm-but-not-physically-damaging beating.”)

best regards,
- terry pride,
apdt#1827, CVA, IPDTA, TDF
‘over 20 years educating people, training pets’

By Kay on Jun 7, 2008 | Reply

Terry,

That’s great that you are so successful with your clicker training. I’m really successful with the way I train. I still think clicker training is ridiculous and you and all the other clicker training people should get together and live in a world of happiness and sunshine and horse erections. You’re not going to convert me, so quit trying. I will always roll my dogs and spank my horses and I don’t care if it’s unpopular. I don’t train animals for a living, so I don’t really need to justify myself in order to make money. I do what I do because I love doing it and I love my animals.

By ihavequestions on Jun 7, 2008 | Reply

The writer has overlooked an important part of ‘marker’ aka ‘clicker’ training: *bridging*. In essence, marker training helps horses to understand that the chosen sound (whether it be a clicker or the word ‘good!’) means, “Yes, this is the desired behavior.” So, instead of having to try to guess what the handler wants, or instead of having to endure strictly ‘negative’ reinforcements, the horse is able to understand what is wanted so she may choose to perform the desired behavior when it is asked for. Marker training is a way in which interspecies communication can be enhanced.

I’ve never seen a gelding or a stallion get a chubby from marker training. Just who has the writer seen this with, and WHAT activity were they and the handler engaged in?

By GB on Jun 7, 2008 | Reply

Anyone who works around horses and doesn’t know that a male horse “drops” when he is relaxed should probably get the hell out of there before they get killed by their own ignorance some day. Cripes.

By funchy on Jun 7, 2008 | Reply

Wow, what a sadly uninformed article. I can’t identify a single paragraph that is based on fact. The use of words such as “retard” is bit unprofessional at the very least.

I don’t even know where to start to counter these unfounded claims. Let me attempt to highlight a few points:

“Natural” horsemanship is actually NOT directly compatible with clicker training. “Natural horsemanship” motivates the horse to act by releasing pressure (-P); clicker training motivates by adding rewarding (+R). Please go watch a Parelli video and compare.

Author claims treats turn any animal into a puppy who follows you around with no understanding of right and wrong. So you believe by whacking your horse, he now has a moral sense or right & wrong? Or perhaps you meant manners/boundries? If so, do you understand the logic that one CANNOT clicker train if the horse doesn’t have the manners not to just snatch the food? How does hitting him with every mistake teach “right”?

Clicker trained horses are proven not to be “following just for food”. Clicker trained dogs do a “hot dog challenge” where they’re so well trained they bring a whole hot dog back to the owner without biting into it — if it was all about food, how is this possible? If you take a moment, watch one of Alexandra Kurland’s vidoes. In a recent one (”Microshaping”) she trains a horse with food all over the ground. The horse is still doing what she asks and eating only the tidbits he earns while clearly ignoring the food all around his feet.

Clicker trained horses do have a bond, as much as any horse can bond to a person. A bond is based on trust. Logic tells us that animals tend to trust kind consistent people and distrust people who cause them pain, overeact, or cause them fear. It makes no sense to think a horse runs up and looks forward to working with someone known to cause lots of pain. The words “ring sour”, “stubborn”, and “nasty” were labels TRADITIONAL trainers invented to describe *their* horses.

Why couldn’t clicker training be used on a competition horse? They used to say barefoot horses couldn’t do competitions, and people laughed at the first few who tried.

Does the author understand what a “trick” is? Is standing at the mounting block a “trick”? How about moving forward with leg pressure? How about a perfect whoa every time?
If these are “tricks”, sign me up for a “trick” horse. LOL

Clicker training was not invented just for husbandry (i.e. care & breeding) purposes. Aquatic mammals in aquariums earn their keep by performing and the whole time not hurting the people around them. The Navy used clicker training to create dolphins that can accomplish military missions such as navigating a minefield or reconnisance. The dolphin, turned free in an ocean full of fish, does his job and comes back to the people. Why would he do that if all the food he wants is around him?

The author doesn’t understand what a “bribe” is or how CT works. A bribe is something you give that you should not. Clickertraining is a REWARD– much like a paycheck you get from work. The horse never should not get the reward if he doesn’t do what is asked. A reward is also not always food (surprise!). It all boils down to saying ‘good job’ when he gets it right, not wait for him to make a mistake so you can give him another ‘coming to Jesus’ moment of fear or pain. I’d rather think of my horse as a primarily good horse, not go to the barn thinking of him as an idiot who needs to be whacked around.

Here is food for thought: some people find it very rewarding to themselves to dole out punishment. It feels good to “prove who’s boss”, to control, to “teach him a lesson”, and to be “alpha”. It’s a fact that when something is rewarding to a person, they tend to do it more often. Some people get so caught up in it, they can’t see any other way. When a trainer’s only tool is their well-used crop, a chain shank, and sharp spurs, that trainer’s got a tiny training toolbox (of methods) and may find themself stuck easily.

While I respect the author’s right to their own opinion, this essay should’ve been clearned marked as “Opinion”. There isn’t a single logical fact in it, no sources cited, no proof, no nothing.

Respectfully Yours,

A Retard

P.S. I’m retraining a dangerous horse that was thrown into a kill pen because the traditional training wasn’t working after he had a traumatic incident. (He kicks at people when scared). The more you correct an animal who is fear-aggressive, the more scared he gets and in turn the more aggression you get. A pro Natural horsemanship guy tried but couldn’t cure him. We’ve gotten more progress with him doing clickertraining than any other method.

By terry pride apdt#1827 on Jun 7, 2008 | Reply

>> …where I specifically write about the origins of clicker training being effectively used for animal husbandry. << - ‘K’

well, no, it wasn’t -
the ORIGINS of clicker or any other form of marker-training were the experiments of BF Skinner with the OC-box or Skinner box, when he was on the faculty at Harvard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.F._Skinner

quoting wiki:
‘ ‘Operant conditioning is distinguished from classical conditioning (also called respondent conditioning, or Pavlovian conditioning) in that operant conditioning deals with the modification of ‘voluntary behavior’ or operant behavior.
Operant behavior ‘operates’ on the environment and is maintained by its consequences, while classical conditioning deals with the conditioning of respondent behaviors which are elicited by antecedent conditions.

Behaviors conditioned via a classical conditioning procedure are not maintained by consequences.’ ‘
(End Quote)

it had nothing to do with husbandry whatever -
—————————————————-
it was to begin to understand learning, behavior and cognition in non-humans, a process that continues today, and whose applications have increased enormously.

wasps detecting explosives? pouched-rats finding plastic-coated land-mines? conservation-dogs finding dung from endangered-species? guide-horses leading the blind?
dogs finding mercury in drains, leaks in gas-transport pipelines, picking-out fertile dairy-cows in estrus, finding algae-tainted catfish BEFORE they get packed as fillets?
yup.
all c/t apps in the real-world.

also horses who load without fuss even under stress and turmoil, tolerate and even enjoy noisy-challenges like snapping-tarps in a brisk-wind, and OFFER their hooves for the pick or the farrier… willingly.
what’s not to like?

communication is a highly-valued thing - horses like to know what the H*** we are asking for, and this is an easy way to interpret, biped to quadruped, and back-again.

best,
- TSW-terry

terry pride, apdt#1827, CVA, IPDTA, TDF
proud member of Treat-Slinging Weeniew WorldWide
‘treats slung with abandon…
dogs drunk with joy!’ - tmp, 5/13/2008

By Beth on Jun 7, 2008 | Reply

Kay - “These are the same people who think obedience training is a valid way to control a dominant-aggressive dog. They don’t understand that just because the dog sits doesn’t mean the dog respects you. As soon as the food is gone, the dog will surely bite someone. They need to be rolled and pinned–which is an uncomfortable experience for all parties involved but definitely necessary. In the same respect, some horses with bad ground manners do it because they are bossing their owners around. Those horses need a nose chain and a firm-but-not-physically-damaging beating”

Not physically, but I guess you are not worried about mentally then?

Then you have no understanding of learning theory, NEVER mind, clicker training. Does punishment work, yes it does or people wouldnt use it, but it doesnt work or long term OR has lasting effects. Its an easy way.

I am an animal behaviorist with a bachlors from an acredited university. While I use TONS of other methods beside clicker, I would never rely on punishment.

Besides clicker training isnt ALL postive reinforcement it is actually a combination of Positive Reinforcement and Negative Punshiment.

My five year old TB stallion NEVER once dropped when doing clicker training. Not once.

As far as using the click for riding, it MARKS where the horse is correct so that you dont have use as much leg/hand/seat next time…teaches the horse to carry themselves.

AT least we arent hitting them in the heads with “carrot” sticks.

By Megan W. on Jun 7, 2008 | Reply

Dolores - “Competive Trail Stallion”? Okay, C/T might be great for that, but how about Grand Prix Dressage? How about general Dressage? You can’t stop and give your horse treats in a show ring.

and Terry - Your rats, dogs, wasps C/T examples back up all of citizen.K’s points: CLICKER TRAINING MAY SERVE A PURPOSE, BUT IT DOES NOT PROVIDE YOU WITH A BOND.

C/T can obviously be useful for a variety of reasons. No one is arguing that. Getting your horse to like you shouldn’t be one of them. Did the wasps, dogs, and rats all like their clicker trainers just because of C/T?

The problem with Clicker centric trainers/followers is that they can’t see the forest for the trees. Sure, C/T can allow you to command your horse to do weird, crazy, awesome stuff. Most likely, unless you’re handling the horse, no one else can ask your horse the same things.

Example: Girl at my barn gives out her clicker training business cards to everyone. And yes, I see erections from her horse frequently while they are “working” (and yes, NOT just dropping, fully on belly slappers almost without failure).

Also, the help always complains about her horse. She can’t believe that he’s a pain-in-the-you-know for other people. Does he walk great and speedy in from the pasture when she pulls him out? Absolutely, perfect angel. What about when the barn help, or even one of the little girls taking lessons goes to grab him? Problems:

- won’t come to the fence
- won’t be caught for halter
- won’t allow halter on

In the morning:

- goes to back of stall when halter comes out, backs around like a lunatic
- HAS to be drug out to pasture.

The Hispanic help, the little, girls, even the barn manager have issues handling this horse. Yes, the horses’ owner is very nice, but I’m surprised she hasn’t been kicked out of the barn. She keeps talking about wanting to jump this horse, but after the “natural” trims leave him hoof sore for 6 straight days, I don’t know what she’s thinking.

I guess the whole clicker, iron free, “natural” horsemanship stuff just seems like a crock. Soooo many women who buy into one of these systems take the approach that anyone not buying into their system is totally cruel and loves to beat horses. It’s kind of like a holier than thow thing.

I love my horse. I’ve never beaten a horse. I’m against horse slaughter. My horse sees the best vet and farrier I can afford.

Being anti-cruelty and anti-clicker training is not mutually exclusive.

That’s why this site rocks. I’m so glad someone is finally calling B.S. on those who think they “know the way.”

You guys may have found uses for clicker training your horses, but don’t think for a minute you’ve trumped thousands of years of caring horsemen and horsewomen who don’t have a book or a $150/seminar “sage” to follow.

It seems though that many women in horses need a “name brand” to follow. Name brand tack? Name brand barn? Name brand trainer? Name brand training system?

What happened to just plain ole’ horse love and plain ole’ horse training? Love, respect, bonding.

My horse gets a kick out of me. And you know what, I didn’t bribe him with food, and I use a nose chain frequently.

Too bad I can’t market and sell my “horse bonding system”. It works awesome, and I didn’t have to buy fancy tools.

By Ursula Euler on Jun 8, 2008 | Reply

What a trashy ‘magazine’ you have. You seem to have articles to bad-mouth anything. I prefer to pursue positive results, because what you focus on, expands. Clicker training, for example, focuses on the positive and what works. I think you would be better of with your articles if you cut off a slice of that for yourself(ves).

Ursula
Amateur horse trainer using Natural Horsemanship, Clicker Training, Conventional Conditioning

By Kay on Jun 8, 2008 | Reply

Megan,

You rock. I think this site is so awesome because it is finally a place for people like us who DON’T have a brand to stand behind and don’t subscribe fully to ONE method. Either people are pro-horse welfare and subscribe to some whacko training methods (clicker training, natural horsemanship, iron-free, orange stick, etc.) or are anti-horse welfare and train horses using the tried-and-true common sense methods. Being in the middle sucks, but it’s nice to at least have a website to come to.

By Neila on Jun 8, 2008 | Reply

Clicker training can be used only occasionally, and still be very effective without most of the downsides you mention. Once a horse understands what the clicker means, it is just one more tool in the toolbox. I bring out the clicker once or twice a month for a 15-minute session on something we’ve been struggling with, and it can be a miraculous shortcut. But then the clicker is packed away again.

If the clicker is the *only* means of reinforcing a behavior (or absence of a bad behavior), then yes–big problems. But if not used dogmatically and exclusively, clicker training can be an effective and–for the horse–clear communication.

Every few weeks we ride on the beach and it’s a ’special treat’ for the horses–a day ride that doesn’t happen often, but they love it when it does. We use clicker training the same way — like a ‘fun’ day that happens every so often. But the training ’sticks’.

I’ve used it for trailer loading problems, not taking a particular lead while longeing, and for one extremely unmotivated low-energy horse when asked to do things in environments he didn’t find stimulating. But I’ve gone as long as 6 months without touching the clicker, and they still remember what it means and I can do a little fun ‘tune-up’ in areas where negative reinforcement isn’t as motivating.

A good trainer/student picks and chooses from a wide range of approaches and techniques. Shutting out one method entirely can sometimes be just as rigid and limiting as choosing a single way and following it religiously to the exclusion of all else.

By Amanda on Jun 9, 2008 | Reply

Clicker training is just good use of operant conditioning. All animals learn using operant and classical conditioning.

Those who train without rewards for the behaviours that are desired are limiting themselves as they are then only using 2 parts of operant conditioning when there are 4 parts to it. So by dissing reward based training, their training effectiveness decreases and the animals are performing behaviours because they don’t want to suffer the consequences of not doing it.

We all train. We train each other in day to day life and the way people respond to us is based on the previous experiences they have had. So why not use that to our advantage. Learn what our actions will cause to happen and not just limit ourselves to the punishing side of things…..what happens when we reward a behaviour ?

The answer to that is that people/animals don’t want to leave us. They want to stay and learn more coz we are fun to be around. We don’t tie them down to stay with us, they stay out out of choice. I don’t want my horses to stay with me because they are afraid of the consequences if they try to leave. I want them to stay because they like me and what I bring to them.

Clicker training is just good and conscious use of the learning theories that were defined (not “invented”) almost 100 years ago. The way we learn has been around since life began, it jsut took a while for someone (BF Skinner) to be interested enough to research it and define the reinforcers and punishers.

Clicker training is just “educated training”. By educated, I mean educatedin the theory of learning as opposed to the behaviours being trained. We can all be educated in the behaviours, but can we all train them ? Not many people woudl know where to start….. teach them the theory behind learning and they can teach anything.

The saying about ‘give a man a fish and he can eat for a day, and teach a man to fish and he can eat for a lifetime’ springs to mind.

Teach someone how to teach one behaviour and they can teach that behaviour, teach them the theory behind how the animal learns all behaviours and they can teach anything.

By Bob V on Jun 9, 2008 | Reply

I just wanted to add my opinion to these statements about Clicker Training.
I have been doing this for over 15 years and has changed my life and made thousands of children and seniors happy.I have a bond with Crackers my horse that is out of this world.I use all of the top natural horsemanship training methods added with the clicker.
Yes I do trick training and your right I was on the Daivid Letterman show,Animal Planet,also in Alexander Kurlands Books and vidios which I owe to my sucess and enjoyment of my horse.This shows people that horses are smart and can be a good conpanion and safe.
Crackers and I go to Double H Hole in the Woods (Paul Newmans place)Handicapped Kids,Autistic Kids,Senior live ins Mirical Leauges etc He performs tricks people can’t imagine a horse can do.
It is good to be an American and have a choice.
PS. Has never dropped once.

By Beth on Jun 9, 2008 | Reply

One very important thing the writer of this article seems to have misunderstood out is that after you work on a skill with the clicker, you eventually FADE OUT the clicker and the treats. Therefore, you are not clicking for everything the horse does, and the horse should behave the same for other non-clicking people. Furthermore, there’s no reason to be clicking and treating during competition.

In addition, the purpose of clicker training (in my mind, anyway) is NOT to create a bond with my horse. I love my horses, but I know very well that they are just happy to see me because I bring them their meals. I started to use clicker training as a way to solve some very specific and potentially dangerous problems. Sure there are other ways, but this approach has worked well for me.

By Leslie Pavlich on Jun 9, 2008 | Reply

I have been Clicker Training for over 8 years and have started over 70 colts with it. It I much safer and fair to use than not. I did a full time study for over 4 years of the use of Clicker Training and combining Natural Horsemanship techniques. I have written a book that has a wonderful maintenance program with the use of Clicker Training. My horses ride just like anyone else’s, but I don’t have to use harsh methods to get good results. I sell my horses to people that do not Clicker Train and they have had great success with them. They do notice that the horses are different and more willing. More of a partner.

I have written Clicker Training: Colt Starting the Natural Horse. This is a step by step guide to start a colt or start any horse with Clicker Training. It phases out the click when the horse understands what you want. So you don’t click for every little thing all the time. You do use Negative Reinforcement when the time is right. What this does is allow the horse to recognize the tasks itself and imprint the tasks as something good so the attitude of the horse is much better than without it, and is much faster.

My horses are very respectful and easier to work with. I do not have to click all the time. My horses understand what I want and do what I ask with very light signals, much lighter than if I never used Clicker Training. They become your true partner because it is not about the food or even the click so much it is about explaining yourself in a way that they truly understand. Doing the opposite of what you want is not even in existence. There is only “I want to because I know how.” Horses are misunderstood.

Clicker Training is for all horses not just abused horses or special horses. I feel that all horses have the right to be trained with the best methods possible. Clicker Training is the top of the list because you can actually tell the horse exactly what you want with the click. All a horse really wants or any animal is to know what we want. Clicker Training allows you to do that. But it is our responsibility to understand the horse and have a good maintenance program to maintain what is taught without the click all the time.

It is not fair to try to exclude horses from Clicker Training since there has been success with Clicker Training for over 6000 different animals and over 40 years of study. The problem is it is new to the horse world and is misunderstood.

I have seen Clicker Trained horses that are disrespectful to their owners, and this most likely is why this article was written. I have also seen horses that are disrespectful that don’t use Clicker Training. You cannot stamp Clicker Training as something bad by what you see by some. Think of the big picture.

I give riding lessons on my horses and no one has to use a Clicker or any food. They ride just fine without it.
I also have trained childrens horses with Clicker Training. The children don’t clicker train, but they ride a Clicker Trained Horse.

By tamilynrose on Jun 9, 2008 | Reply

I cannot believe what I just read. The ignorance of the author on the topic of operant conditioning with regards to equine is totally astonishing. I don’t even know where to begin on debating as the article is so full of untruths and blatant well, ignorance … I would just encourage any reader to do your own research on Clicker Training with regard to TEACHING horses and find out the truth from educated and knowledgeable trainers who utilize this form of teaching in their own SUCESSFUL day-to-day work.

Good Glory! Such rubbish …

By Bonnie on Jun 9, 2008 | Reply

Wow, I got a totally different feel from this article than everyone else. I have been riding for over 20 years and most of my riding has been showing hunter jumpers. I have spent time starting young horses and re-training ex-racehorses too. I have dabbled in dressage and about a year ago have had the opportunity to do a little eventing too.

With all the years of riding I have seen all different kinds of training methods. I have gone to clinics, Monty Roberts, Pat Parelli, some smaller no name natural horsemanship people, and of course lots of hunter jumper clinics. I took bits and pieces from every clinic I attended and have also taken tips from every trainer I have worked with.

We had a horse at a barn I rode at a few years ago that was a lunatic about gates. This horse would about have a panic attack walking through a gate. It wasn’t just the fear of the gate hitting him, it was a deep fear. Not knowing his history we couldn’t determine what caused this fear for sure. Understand though, he was an absolute angel about everything else. But he was downright dangerous to turn out or bring in. The outdoor arena had a gate and there was no way you could be on his back to get him through the gate and on the ground he would trample you, get loose, or start rearing and striking out. We tried everything from treats, lunging near gates, standing near gates, we even set up a round pen with a gate in the middle so he would have to go in and out of the gate with no people around. We would put his food on one side of the gate and water on the other. He wouldn’t eat, he would rather not go through a gate than eat. So, it wasn’t just the gate with people, gates were scary to this horse in every way. The trainer at the barn was about to give up until she was told about a clicker trainer person who someone had success with working on trailering fears. So this clicker trainer person came out and started working with him (his name was Teddy). After about 2 weeks, he was getting better about the gate. I can say, he had erections a few times, he was not dropped and relaxed - these were full on erections. I remember the trainer even asked the vet, who rolled his eyes and made a comment about the training method. Needless to say, he got better about the gate after about 2 months. I will say that although he was better about the gate, you had to have food. The clicker trainer said that eventually you could wean him off the treats. He was almost normal about the gate when the clicker trainer stopped working with him and soon after that Teddy was sold so I don’t know how he ended up long term. I don’t think it was totally food motivated. It seemed like Teddy gained confidence, the food was a distraction of sorts.

I know that was long, but I wanted to share the positive experience of clicker training that I witnessed before I went any further. Because I was pretty impressed with Teddy’s recovery I decided to go to a few clicker training clinics and audit them. First I will say, there were erections all over the place. When I first read the erections part of this article I was laughing hysterically because I thought that was the weirdest thing I had ever seen. And NO these horses were not just dropped. I’m a grown woman, I know the difference! Second, everyone there was so focused on the “task” at hand that they weren’t accomplishing a very well rounded training program. No one that was at this clinic with their horse were doing any other training besides clicker training. Their horses were all acting like dogs (with erections) and many of the owners shared what their goals were with riding and with their horses, it was clear that these goals weren’t going to be met with clicker training.

I had a friend who was looking for a barn and she ended up at a semi natural horsemanship barn that had a clicker trainer that came twice a week. My friend wasn’t looking for a natural horsemanship barn but it was in the right area and the amenities were great. So, after a month she calls me and tells me the horses are all weird and her horse has become a dud. My friend wasn’t a super experienced horse person so she asked if I would come out and see. She had been taking clicker training lessons twice a week for a month. Her horse, a 5 yr old Hanoverian mare had been under saddle for about 8 months. She was a super quiet mare and my friend wanted to do dressage with her, though not much competing. She is a small mare, 15.3, with a huge stride and very pretty. She was always pretty forward, but quiet. My friend got on her and could barely get her to trot. She said the clicker trainer had mostly been doing ground work, but a few times she was riding during a lesson to teach her to stand at the mounting block for mounting and dismounting. Also, she had been having problems with the mare standing still when she would first get on her. Not wild crazy, just antsy, young horse ADD. So, it appeared the mare was waiting for treats or something. I got on her and it was the same thing. I suggested she stop the clicker training, lunge her and make sure she moves forward (the mare knew voice commands). After a month of no clicker training the mare was back to being herself! My friend moved to a different barn and has had her shown through Prix St George without another clicker training session.

I guess what I got out of this article is the same as my experience with clicker training and really any other training “system”. People seem to overdue things and with clicker training and natural horsemanship it seems like the people who are totally into assume that anyone who isn’t beats their horses. Yet, they read an article that points out the “system” goes too far, they assume beating your horse is the only other option.

I took away training systems are silly. Every trainer and every training system may have something to offer a horse. Exclusively using any training system is not only ridiculous, it isn’t true training. I don’t think clicker training a horse is good. I do think that for major problems, depending on the horse, clicker training can actually help. Systems are a joke, every horse is different, and every situation is different. Relying on one certain training method is too conforming for me and for any horse.

One more thing, having only positive reinforcements is not a great way to communicate effectively with your horse. Horses like clear definitions and they like to know not only what you WANT them to do, but also what you DON’T want them to do. Now, clicker trainer people, that doesn’t mean beating, crops, whips, and spurs. It can simply mean raising your voice, slight pressure, YES sometimes a chain.

The clicker trainer people who have posted don’t seem to see that THEY are the ones who are one extreme. Open your eyes to see that there are many different ways to train a horse and training a horse with one single method is generally not the best.

Tally Ho!

Bonnie

By Bishop on Jun 9, 2008 | Reply

I have two colts: Natural Hormanship & clicker trained. When one of my colts is pulling a steep grade off trail through sage, rocks and manzaneta at 3.0 mph and they are giving me exactly what I want, I click them. Their ears pop without loosing a stide or stopping for food. But they do stop eventually, knowing and trusting that all is well and they seem proud and pleased with themselves. They love knowing what it is I want and they love to know when they have done what I want. [The U.S. Cavalry, a century ago, patted the neck of the horse and the manual states emphatically how important that reinforcement is.]

to me relationship is my movitation for clicker training and performance is second. Being able to tell my colts that what they just did was exactly what I wanted and when I wanted it, is thrilling. Safety at my age of 80 is also a factor.

By Michelle Blount-Jordan on Jun 9, 2008 | Reply

Wow there is so much incorrect information in this article that I dont even know where to start.

1. It seems a common misconception that if you use clicker training you must not ever use corrections. NOT SO for many of us. There are people who only do clicker training and nothing else BUT there are many people who use clicker training as ONE PART of thier training program, not thier entire training program. This applies to dog training as well as horse training. I do believe that some of what I call “clicker zealots” have given some incorrect sterotypes to those that use clicker training therefore preventing some people from seeing the benefit. Clicker training is just how we initially teach a behavior and put it on cue. Once we have the behavior on cue (rein, foot, verbal, what ever you choose)then you no longer clicker for it. At that point then you can use your normal cues and corrections for lack of compliance. I added clicker to my horses training program in addition to other training methods to achieve a goal. To criticize all clicker training because you are not aware of how it works is like the clicker zealots saying all non clicker trainers beat thier horses into submisssion. Both extreme views are incorrect. I agree that not setting structure and gaining your horses respect is a mistake. I just hate to see people assume that no clicker people do gain respect from thier horses.

2. Ive never had my gelding get an erection when clicker training him. I think if someone is having this issue it isnt related to their clicker training but something else.

3. one person mentioned if a horse is clicker trained no one else can work it. NOT SO. The clicker isnt how you tell them to do something! When initially teaching a behavior yes the clicker says you are doing the right thing. Its a reinforcement, it isnt the cue. You shape a behavior and then put it on cue! Once it is on cue why should you not be able to have other people ask for it??

4. This idea that a clicker horse mugs and bites and is aggressive… When I got my gelding he was a food mugger and he definitly didnt come from a clicker background. I used clicker training, and other methods in combonation, to teach him pushing gets you nothing. I have used clicker training to easily teach him to move laterally, back, disengage his hindquarters, drop his head, etc around food and not crowd or push. Initially when I got him if you pressured him to move away and he didnt know exactly what to do he would become increasingly aggressive and scared a few trainers and tried to stomp them. I had never done any clicker training with him at that point. I then decided to use the clicker training to first show him what I wanted. I clicker trained the response I was looking for and then added the pressure back in when he didnt respond correctly. This worked and got my horse performing. My horse does not have the typical flight response of many horses I see. When pressured and he doesnt know what to do, he fights. Now I can walk into the field with his food bowl and ask him to laterally move or back and wait, set it down and then give him a release and have him approach politely.

5. I started using clicker training with my horse because as I watched almost all trainers were using negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcment is the removing of pressure to encourage a behavior. I wondered why not first teach the horse want to do, put it on cue, then only add the pressure in when he knew what I wanted and didnt respond. Clicker training just makes the initial teaching based on positive reinforcement vs negative reinforcement. It doesnt mean that at other times you can not choose things from the other training quadrants. There is
positive reinforcement- adding something to make a behavior happen again
negative reinforcement- removing something to make a behavior happen again
negative punisher- removing something to discourage a behavior from happening again
positive punishment- adding something to discourage a behavior from happening again

By lisa on Jun 9, 2008 | Reply

Well there you have it. Clicker training doesn’t work with horses. Sure works for my mules and donkeys though. Huh. Maybe that other thing in my barn that used to be a nut case is a short eared mule.

By Leslie Pavlich on Jun 10, 2008 | Reply

Bonnie commented about the article and stated.

>Exclusively using any training system is not only ridiculous, it isn’t true training.

>Systems are a joke, every horse is different, and every situation is different. Relying on one certain training method >is too conforming for me and for any horse.

>Horses like clear definitions and they like to know not only what you WANT them to do, but also what you >DON’T want them to do

I am not sure how you would give a clear definition to a horse if you don’t have a system. Horses like to know what to expect and do better with consistency. You have to have many different solutions to each problem, but you have to know where you are going. If you have no system it can be the blind leading the blind or it will be this or that. That also can be why success is not in the future. We should have a system of guidelines to go by to know where we are going. Those guidelines can be broken to the individual, but you better know where you are going. Nothing causes more frustration than inconsistency.

I wouldn’t expect someone to know how to start a colt if they never did it before. I would hope they would have a plan.

You can have a set program, but every horse is different the more experience you have the better you will be able to deal with the issue. Everything is not cured by the click it is an assistance for unlearned tasks and gives the horse the idea in a positive way. What you do with it after that is up to the individual.

Training horses is just like Art no one person is going to train the exact way as the other and that is the way it should be, but we have to know how. We also have to know what works and what doesn’t work.

Clicker Training can change how you see the horse and for some that can be difficult. Working with the thinking concentrated horse can be a challenge for some. You will have to keep up with your horse. Horses live by systems everday.

Leslie Pavlich

By Charlotte Araki on Jun 11, 2008 | Reply

Just adding to those that have stated this article is so uniformed it almost is laughable if it didn’t discourage people who are afraid of new ideas from trying it. he extra size type on erections was revolting. As someone said, if you don’t know the difference between dropping and and erection boy are you not a horse person.

Clicker training started with dolphins and orcas because you can’t make them do anything or put a noose around their necks so the idea was to help them learn what was expected by a clear signal, a clear yes. That is what the clicker is all about. I’ve been with many of the “famous” traditional trainers that work off of pressure and release or roundpen the horse into submission. If the author thinks that running a horse half to death gains respect, well that’s their choice. I would much rather have a horse that is thinking and trying to figure out what I’m asking. He can walk away at any time. He could attack me if he wanted to but all he wants to do is be with me, often with no treats involved.

I hope the author is not receiving a salary for his job because that is an reward. That’s how he buys his food. What’s the difference.

By Bonnie on Jun 11, 2008 | Reply

Leslie-

Thank you for your comment and first I would like to say out of all the clicker training advocates that have commented on this article both you and Suzanne’s comments are the only comments that offer insight and practical experience.

I disagree that you need a training “system” to effectively train a horse. A system doesn’t give you eyes to lead your horse. The system MAY give an inexperienced person confidence for a “do-it-yourself” way of “training”.

The main point of difference is offering clear guidelines of both what you want from your horse and what you don’t want from your horse. With clicker training, from the clinics I audited the horses were getting “conditioned” but when it came down to practical “training” that went further towards performance the horses and owners appeared confused and lost. Plus, the horses that were acting bad were just allowed to. It appeared as though in some cases, depending on the person and horse, they were creating monsters!

I have no doubt and I don’t think this article is saying that clicker training doesn’t work. In my opinion for people that don’t keep there horses at home and are looking to further their “horsemanship” skills and riding, clicker training is a very narrow path to achieving goals with their horse(s).

I guess one of the biggest problems I have with clicker training isn’t so much the training as I said I think it can be a great tool for problems that aren’t getting resolved in any other way (fear, aggression, & anxiety). I wouldn’t say it is the only way, but it is something to fall back on if needed. The proof is in the comments from the other clicker training folks. It’s clicker training or cruelty. That is just absurd!

Yes you need a plan when you are training a horse, but a method or a system? I totally agree that inconsistency is frustrating for anyone learning, whether it be a horse, dog, or a person. But a method or system isn’t necessarily needed to create a consistent training “plan”. Most horses can easily read body language and understand the tone of a persons voice WITHOUT being conditioned. Most horses know what is respectful and disrespectful just from having been with other horses. Boundaries are a fact of every animals instinctual life and it’s easy to “train” off of those instincts without using a system and it doesn’t mean BEATING them!!!

I guess it all depends what you are training. Sure, if you are training “tricks” I would say clicker training is on the top of the list. But, practically most horses aren’t trick horses and most owners, even if they DO want their horse to do tricks, they want more than that.

I understand that you have clicker trained children’s horses and give lessons on clicker trained horses and the riders don’t use the clicker.

I’m wondering, though, on average, do most people that do clicker training have their horses at a clicker trained exclusive barn? Because I imagine the inconsistency of handling would be confusing in the everyday handling. I have no doubt that clicker training CAN be beneficial for problems. I just don’t see the benefit of it as a foundation to a horses training.

I will say the last comment from Charlotte Araki is what gives clicker training and the people involved a bad name, she isn’t the only one. All the others besides Leslie and Suzanne almost clearly define WHY clicker training doesn’t make sense.

“If you don’t know the difference between dropping and an erection boy are you not a horse person”

Clearly Charlotte, you have not read many of the other comments with a clear explanation that dropping and an erection are two separate actions and all knew the difference quite well!

“If the author thinks that running a horse half to death gains respect, well that’s their choice.”

Again, the extreme. Of course if someone doesn’t like clicker training they must be abusing their horses. That’s the only other option. Clicker training or abuse. No where in this article does it talk about round pens or running a horse to death. You discredit yourselves by not reading the entire article AND by making extreme assumptions.

“I hope the author is not receiving a salary for his job because that is a reward. That’s how he buys his food. What’s the difference.”

So, you are comparing a paying job to clicker training. I don’t know who you work for, but every job I have had has clear definitions of good and bad behavior and expectations. If you do your job you get paid, if you go above and beyond you get a bonus, promotion, or some other positive reinforcement, if you fail at something you could get fired, you could get a dock in pay, you could get demoted, you could get “written up”. It’s not all rewards in the world. There is clear positive and negative reinforcements, usually outlined in a employee handbook.

This is a great discussion and find the comments equally as interesting and entertaining as the article itself!

By Carol W. on Jun 11, 2008 | Reply

Hi,

I am actually a “lurker” on a different forum that talks about clicker training. There was a link to this article on that site so I came to see what this was all about.

I rode horses when I was a kid. I rode english and did some jumping, but nothing really fancy. I wasn’t able to stay in horses during high school or college so when I was financially stable I started riding again. It was always my dream to have my own horse and now I do.

I used to be very confident around horses and while riding. Now, maybe because of my age, I find myself pretty timid around them. I’m a chicken in the saddle, but thought I was pretty good handling them on the ground. Then I got my horse, Benny, a TB off the track. Well, he had been off the track for a few years by the time I got him. He probably wasn’t the right horse for me, but my trainer at the time thought he was perfect.

Needless to say, I’m at a barn that doesn’t have a full time trainer. The trainer that comes once a week for lessons is great, but between lessons I needed to get more confidence. I have been embarrassed to admit that I’m not totally comfortable with doing a lot with Benny so I just haven’t done that much outside of grooming and riding in the ring.

There are a few woman at my barn that do parelli natural horsemanship stuff. But, since I’m in marketing as a profession I saw through Parelli and told myself I would not succum to the target audience of 30-40 woman lacking confidence. I didn’t see the “mainstream” training systems or methods as good for me or my horse, I rather just use common sense and get to know horses and their behavior better. I saw these systems for what they are and what the natural horsemanship article on this website says “genius marketing”.

I have been doing some research and have been considering clicker training. One of the girls at my barn swears by it and there are a few people that are getting into it. I have watched, on the sidelines and have not seen anything impressive or groundbreaking (AND I HAVE SEEN ERECTIONS). But, I have been wanting to gain confidence and also have Benny learn that when I ask something of him, I would really appreciate it if he did it.

What I did like about the clicker training is that it isn’t “mainstream” so I thought without the strong following, there might be something in it for me. Again, I’ve been a “lurker” and had not made up my mind.

Seeing the reactions to this article have shed some light on the subject. The article itself didn’t persuade me, but the clicker training people did. My biggest problem with my “fear” with Benny is that I am not firm in what I am asking him to do. I ask, I ask politely, and when he blatantly gives me the finger, I decide not to push the subject. He’s got my card!

The way this article and this magazine is portrayed on a clicker training forum is completely different than it actually is. Which makes me question clicker training. There was one post that said - “Say No To Your Horse Trainer” (summary: who needs a trainer if you
have a sharp whip & enjoy hitting things?) Did you even read the article? It has nothing to do with that. You scorn this article, but you have completely as Bonnie said “discredited” yourselves with your inability to read.

No where on this magazine website I have read any advocacy to beating a horse, using a sharp whip or enjoying hitting things. I read almost every article on this website and found many of the articles interesting with a different viewpoint of the horse society. But, most importantly using common sense and learning about horse behavior to strengthen the relationship with your horse.

I am someone who is looking for information on gaining confidence with my horse, hopefully getting a better seat, and hopefully being able to ride around a course of jumps, is not being uninformed by reading this article. In fact it is very eye opening to what I THINK the author was trying to say. Clicker trainer people are extreme, they can’t see outside of their clicker ways. The horses are conditioned and more importantly the clicker people are conditioned. I for one want a relationship with my horse, I want my horse to like me, but as said on one of the articles in this website, my horse NEEDS to respect me. Nowhere does it say that respect comes from beating, whips, or running to death.

I have 3 kids, all boys. I don’t beat them, but I need to be firm with them. I guess I see that my horse needs the same firm, but gentle and understanding hand. I want Benny to be happy, to love me, but most importantly Benny needs to know that I am the boss mare LOL!!

Thanks for shedding some light on the subject clicker training people. I choose sound minds who ARE open to hearing other viewpoints. The article was entertaining, but the clicker training peoples comments were enlightening.

Bonnie was right though, Suzanne and Leslie did provide the only articulate response to this article and I do appreciate that. However, clicker training is not a path I will choose unless it is deemed necessary!

By Cara on Jun 11, 2008 | Reply

I laughed my whole way through this, why, well because when a friend bought me the “clicker training” book because she thought it was neat, i promptly handed it back to her and said sorry but i dont train my horse to do tricks. Horse’s are 1,000 animals and i do not reward my horse for being good with food every time. He gets hugs and kisses and lovey talk to him, my horse respects me listens off the barn property, he stands walks next to me, and is just a good boy. All without clickers or a stash of cookies in my pockets for a reward everytime he doesnt bite my face or run me over. my horse tries to run me over i will shank him and repremand him, when good i will love on him. I dont care what you clicker training weirdos think, i think you all need to find a small island where you can sing along to the radio with your clickers in you hands and talk about how fun it is to make your horse listen with food and freaking clickers, i think your all insane

By Kay on Jun 12, 2008 | Reply

Cara,

My sentiments exactly. Here’s to common sense! I love on my horse all the time too–I use a baby voice when I talk to him because he spent 3 years on the track living in a dark stall so he’s physically 4 and mentally about 2. But if he gets out of line, I use my angry voice and get after him. As soon as he’s good, it’s back to the baby voice. He’s even learned to relax his head down when I say “good boy” because I only say it when he’s relaxed. This is a purely incidental voice command that didn’t require any clicks or specific rewards. Horses are smart animals and if you pair a word with an action enough times, they catch on without the use of a “marker”. Unpleasant behavior = unpleasant action from owner; Pleasant behavior = pleasant action from owner. Simple. I studied Psychology for 5 years and I know ALL ABOUT conditioning. However, I think conditioning sometimes assumes that everybody is a lot less intelligent than they really are. All animals follow a strong leader. If you are a strong enough person, you don’t need to clickety clack all the time.

By Suzanne on Jun 13, 2008 | Reply

Ahem… I would swear that this was my last post on this subject, but I’ll probably get pissed off enough to post again, so I won’t say I’m gone just yet.

If every clicker basher will please READ my posts, what I said was that I tried clicker training with my young, mischievous gelding, and it worked. It allowed me to channel his ever active mind without forcing him to shut it down. I was able to teach him respect without losing his trust. Does that mean I’ve never punished him or called him down? Of course not! GEEZ! I do believe in operant conditioning, but still, with a 1300 lb. critter one does need a “stop that NOW” signal.

That having been said, in my humble experience, I’ve found that I can teach him much more quickly with reward than with punishment. I’m not an extremest, and I doubt many others who utilize clicker training in their training program are either. I don’t say it’s the only way. Heck, it’s not all I use either, but I do use it a lot now because IT WORKS, at least for me and my horse.

All I’ve asked is not to be considered an idiot and an object of ridicule. I SAID everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as it’s expressed respectfully. Okay?

“If you are a strong enough person, you don’t need to clickety clack all the time.” Kay, that was beneath you, and just the kind of sarcasm I’m referring to. Unnecessary.

By Jocelyne Boudreau on Jun 20, 2008 | Reply

You really don’t have all the facts. Even before clicker training (I was a Parelli student for 3 years), my gelding always had an erection when I would stroke him. Maybe he just loves having gentle hands instead of being slapped.
I have two geldings and every morning I give them their grain, at liberty, in a field and not once have they attacked me. They do respect me and they know I will give them their treat (of course they’re not starving either).
I use clicker training mostly to teach my horse something new. Once he knows, I just pet him. But, I do give him a treat when I approach him (a small carrot or sunflower seeds). Again, they don’t attack me for more. It’s a sign that I know what treat he likes. It’s like going to a friend’s house and they offer you something to drink. It’s being social. And my horses aren’t fat. I don’t feed them every second.
And let me tell you. I do have such a wonderful relationship with my horses. I hardly have to halter them to ask them. when I want to clean their shelter, I just say go and point to the direction I want them to go and off they go. Now, is that polite or what!!
Maybe, you should try it. Leslie Pavlich gives wonderful courses for beginners and she has a book out.

Get your facts straight, please!!

By Kay on Jun 21, 2008 | Reply

Don’t the clicker training people already have hundreds of other websites to go to to advocate their “training” methods? Why do they think posting here is a good idea? People who are really against clickers will not use it no matter what anybody says. People who are clicker zealots are the way they are because it obviously works for whatever they are trying to teach their horses to do. I’m yet to see an Olympic (not para-olympics, which is NOT the same thing) rider advocate for it. Since that’s where I’m headed, I see no use for it. I know lots of recreational and trail riders at my barn who use it all the time, but they are on an entirely different plane than me. They want to develop this deep, intense bond with their horses and own their horses for their horses’ entire lives.
every horse I buy is eventually going to be sold. I would never sell a horse at an auction or for meat and they always go to homes where, at the least, they are properly and adequately cared for (even if their new owners don’t use the horse to it’s full potential–at least they feed them and make sure their healthy). It’s just easier to train them to be ridden and handled the way most people in my discipline train and handle horses–and that doesn’t include clicker training. I know trainers in other disciplines–western pleasure, reining, cutting, trail, english pleasure, hunters, dressage, and eventing–who do the same thing that I do and are quite successful.

By Jocelyne Boudreau on Jun 22, 2008 | Reply

If it’s your opinion, then that’s fine. But the way you expressed yourself on the subject, is completely wrong. Ok, so now we know you don’t want a horse for life, you want the easiest way to train a horse, not thinking about the horse but rather thinking about the trainer, ok, you would rather continue slapping your horse (if he doesn’t understand you) rather than being patient (even though you said you love horses). I hope you don’t slap your kids (if you have any). As you know, in the olden days, parents used to slap kids and tell them to shut up. Today, we have a little more respect (in general) for life, whether it be human or animal or even plant life.
You can have an opinion on a subject like this but for those who are seeking advice, it’s not fair to put down a method when you haven’t even tried it yourself.

By Linda on Aug 30, 2008 | Reply

You are seriously mistaken on a lot of points in your post. Clicker training absolutely can be used successfully with horses and other equids. (And chickens, and marine mammals, and just about anything else.)

I’ve had excellent results with clicker training, including training horses to load in trailers, stand for mounting, and training a nervous, pushy donkey to walk alongside me politely, and take treats without biting (which he did, hard, when he came to me).

Clicker training (operant conditioning) is not the same as coaxing or bribery. If you’re not getting good results with it, you aren’t doing it correctly. Since you apparently haven’t done it at all, maybe you shouldn’t be giving advice on it.