Citizen Horse

By JumpersRule on Apr 19, 2008 | Reply

OMG I keep telling my friends Hunters are lame but everyone is 2 scared to jump. I hate politics.

By April on Apr 20, 2008 | Reply

I ride hunters and it takes a lot of skill to ride around a hunter course. Just because the fences aren’t all crazy doesn’t mean it is easy. You have to keep a rhythm throughout the entire course and the fences aren’t always small. I do the amateur owners and the fences are 3′6″ and there are a few conformation and regular working hunters in the barn that jump 3′9″ to 4′ so try taking a jumper through a course like that without them throwing their head in the air and acting like lunatics!!!!!! Hunters deserve more credit jumpers can run around a course looking like crap, hunters have to be under control and relaxed.

By Barb T. on Apr 20, 2008 | Reply

April, maybe you didn’t understand the article. The fact that the courses are easy are part of why the hunters go around the course more under control and relaxed. The courses are set at even strides, there is no adjusting, you do have to keep an even pace but that is it. Once the pace is set you just sit there. Many jumpers could go around a hunter course without acting crazy. The adjustments, tight turns, and other technical details is what makes the jumpers look crazy. I did hunters for many years and made started doing jumpers about 4 yrs ago and am having more fun than ever and feel like a much better rider. I don’t get as many ribbons that would the only downfall.

By chaospony on Apr 30, 2008 | Reply

You should point out in the article that is American “Hunters” in England it is not judged that way. Over here first you have a flat section where they want to see the walk, very little trot, the canter and the gallop. Second part is conformation where the horse is judged on whether it could stand a whole days hunting. Third you have the jumping which can be in any course, never had one as simple as the one you describe, the fences just have to be rustic, and form does not count clear rounds do. Then all three scores are added it up to find the winner.

By Shannon on May 1, 2008 | Reply

I love the “Hunter” vs. “Hunt” part. What happened to the Hunt? It always amazes me that hunters don’t allow dogs at their shows. LOL. What on earth would those horses do in a HUNT field with dogs running and barking at their feet?

I definitely agree that hunters is a good place to start, but it is also a good place to end. Move on if you want to learn how to actually ride a horse and have some fun.

By Lori Kern on May 2, 2008 | Reply

I think hunters are good start, but how about a FOXHUNT! that would test skill and enable judges to SHUT the F up, and help riders seriously improve there skill!…..then the pretentious ass’s would think twice,……. see we could kill to birds with one stone!:P

By Cara on May 14, 2008 | Reply

I laughed my whole way through reading this article. i almost want to print it out and post it up at the barn i ride at! I am an eventer! I evented my QH/ Haflinger cross for 5 years before he passed - I started out in the Hunter Ring competing when I was a kid and the experience was both great and very hurtful. I watched how poorly the “judges” “judge” if you can call it that! Recently i purchased a youngster. He has been to TWO shows with me, both sadly enough were hunter schooling shows. These however are what he needs. I watched a judge pin the girl who lost her stirrups 3 times during a class who also kept herself on the incorrect diagnol and wrong lead both ways, pinned 3rd before the flawless grey i watched with his rider! I hate hunters! Everyone should event!

By Gretchen on May 20, 2008 | Reply

Man, I totally got a whole different vibe from reading the hunter vs jumper article than some if not most. I totally missed the “hunter courses are easy/lame/baby-ish/whatever” argument. What I got out of it is that the JUDGING of the hunter rounds is absurdly subjective and relies not so much on how well you rode your round but who the judge standing in the middle of the ring with the clipboard is. It’s no mystery why the same winning names are called time and time again round after round. That one rider who consistently places either possesses the look the judge likes, the type of horse the judge likes, and/or maybe that winning kid is the daughter of someone they play cards with on Wednesday nights. You never know. I don’t like hunter shows for that reason alone and my kid places well. Does my kid place well bc she’s an awesome rider? I’d like to think so but I’ve seen some shady sleight of hand going on in the center of the ring at times. I’ve watch too many kids ride seemingly perfect rounds on perfectly turned-out horses and still leave the ring ribbonless.

By noisejoke on May 20, 2008 | Reply

I wholeheartedly agree with Gretchen, comment #8. The Hunter class, perhaps outside of the consideration of actual hunting application (dog interaction, actual fox hunt, etc), represents a perfectly fine training and competition environment for kids. It stresses basics in form and horsemanship, and is a great general introduction to individual oriented sports. Tennis and golf for instance might not inculcate the same level of responsibility as dealing with a living thing and an all day event. However, my clear and repeated experience, especially in smaller more ad hoc shows, betrays evidence exactly as Gretchen denotes. Those parents and children who are more well known within, more fixtures of and perhaps benefactors to, the barn and/or town where the competition is taking place is blatantly favored and catered to. Clients of instructors attached to that barn or a prevalent local one also receive favors. Of course, these are usually the same people. It always smacks of Little League and children burdened with being their parents proxy and emotional conduit. The somewhat static and calm nature of the course work along with the required consistency of movement and appearance naturally accentuate the reliance on physical appearance of both the horse and the child. The values exemplified are inherently shallow, completely subjective and easily corrupt. At it’s worst children are taught it’s who you know and how much you spend. Hunter class competitions can frequently be compared to beauty pageants.

By noisejoke on May 20, 2008 | Reply

Great site btw. I’m a total neophyte and bystander parent. I dig the info, attitude and inclusiveness.

Thanks!

By Gretchen on May 21, 2008 | Reply

Oooh, I agree with Cara #7. Every eventer I’ve ever met has been a whole different species of rider. They’re crazy but crazy in a fun way. I love hanging out in eventing barns. That said, I’m done.

By Kay on May 23, 2008 | Reply

So, it has been established that hunters are NOT a sport. However, there are a lot of people who like to do it because they’re too afraid to do anything else. There are people I’ve met who do hunters because they think it’s “fun” (yeah, I know–they’re nuts). For those people, I think there should be two divisions in the hunter classes–one for thoroughbreds and one for warmbloods. at all shows. Period. There are just too many judges nowadays who won’t pin anything that isn’t a warmblood. There should be a special place for the thoroughbreds who were the original breed for Hunters. That would also create a new job opening for all the thoroughbreds at the track who are bound for slaughter. They could be re-trained and reliably re-sold as “TB-only” hunters. Then all they have to do is lope around a 2′6″ course and be taken care of. They don’t even have to be reliably sound to do that. I saw plenty of half-lame older horses win the Pre-Adult/Pre-Child divisions when I was a kid provided their rider was skinny enough and had the right saddle.

By Jackie on May 24, 2008 | Reply

Jumpers are just horses and riders who couldn’t handle the hunter ring. YOU guys make ME SICK okay hunters way better then jumpers and it better for the horse just becasue show jumping is in the big dosn’t mean that hunters are not a sport.

By Jackie on May 24, 2008 | Reply

okay Barb T. you do know that we have to get that number of stirdes in and keep the same pace and if you add down the line then we have to add everwhere you jumpers are CRAP. You don’t know S about hunters

By Amanda on May 24, 2008 | Reply

I agree with Jackie. Hunters are amazing. Jumpers is just how fast you can get over the jumps. Hunters is based on how well you do it, and HUNTER ACTUALLY REQUIRES SKILL.

By Kay on May 26, 2008 | Reply

Amanda, You’re wrong. I would believe you if I saw some hunters doing jumper-style courses. However, all you have in hunters is lines and singles with big, easy turns. SOMETIMES there’s a bending line–OOOO! If the A rater shows had the hunters do jumper courses, then I’d give hunters some credit. I did hunters for YEARS and I once got a bug in my eye over the first fence of a 3′ Childrens Hunter course at an A show and did the rest of the course basically blind–and I got all my strides and all my changes and took home first place. I could never do that in a jumper course. I would like to see some Hunter courses with a rollback or two and some 90-degree turns. Jumpers know how to ride a line–we just know more than one way to ride it.

By Emily on May 29, 2008 | Reply

Wow, there is no need to be vicious or petty! This, I feel, is one of the many downfalls of specific ‘disciplines’!

I have lived and competed in America and Britain, ranging from barrels, to polocrosse, to classical spanish dressage, to eventing… and yes - both English and American hunter classes.

While I have a warmblood (I’m 5′11, give me a break!), I do not have a warmblood for the very sake of saying ‘Oh, he’s so-and-so’s line’. There is extremely biased judging in the US hunter rings, and I find many of the girls are trained to be snobs. Perhaps they started the sport with a genuine passion, but by the time they’re teens, that has been sucked out of them. I don’t mean to generalize, but most girls are catty - I’m sure we’ve all been subject to the warm-up ring gossip. I’ve seen people with horses of flawless confirmation, talented riders (and horses) and discipline to shame the army place last - because they didn’t have, for example, the Ariat ticket or pink papers.

If this applies to you, good luck! Hunting probably isn’t the best discipline for you! Myself, I’ve found contentment in my dressage ring, the cross country course (and before foxhunting was banned) my local fields.

By Jackie on Jun 4, 2008 | Reply

Kay in a hunter course we have to rollbacks to each frickin jump. I would like to see you do that and still look the way we do over jumps. Instead of the crap that you look like.

By Kay on Jun 4, 2008 | Reply

I don’t know what planet you live on, but I’ve never seen a rollback in a hunter course in this country in my life. I’ve seen rollbacks in Equitation courses SOMETIMES in the higher levels at AA rated shows. Also, riding should be about function and form should come second. The fact that Hunters are judged on form first and function second is a sad state of affairs. Riding should never be a beauty pageant. I doubt Jackie even knows who I am or what I look like when I ride, which further proves my point–Hunter riders tend to judge other riders primarily on the way they look and think that the way another rider looks is a valid and acceptable form of criticism. This is shallow and detrimental to the sport of riding. Oftentimes, it is also hypocritical–take George Morris, for instance. He feels he can criticize every rider he comes across but he himself cannot even live up to his own standards in his old and decrepit state.

By Jackie on Jun 5, 2008 | Reply

God what planet do you live on. OF course there are rollbacks, for starter you had to have been trained by the most stupieds trainer. If haven’t been to a real hunter show then you don’t know what we are talking about. For starters its judge mainly on what the horse and you look like and how well you preform together. Your basically showing off you skills as a rider. IN jumper as i said before you could never do that. OH and do you know how bad show jumping is for horse. The way the hold there heads so high causes future back problems. You wanna know why because I did show jumping for about 5 years because it was the only thing avaible for me to do at the time. And I hated it. So before you start calling it hypocritical you really need to see who shallow.

By Amanda on Jun 5, 2008 | Reply

Im with Jackie on this one - completely.

The shows I’ve been too - there are rollbacks. There are 90-degree turns.

Hunters are judged based on the degree to which they meet an ideal standard of manners, style, and way of going.

On the other hand, jumper classes are scored based entirely on a numerical score determined only by whether the horse attempts the obstacle, clears it, and finishes the course in the allotted time. It doesn’t matter how well you do it. As long as you got a brave horse and can grab mane - your fine.

By Kay on Jun 6, 2008 | Reply

I believe what Jackie is talking about is Equitation, not Hunters. She should consult the USEF rule book on Hunter course designs. Equitation is judged on the rider and how well the rider meets the standards for an equitation rider as set by the current judge. I also think there’s something to be said for the Grand Prix showjumpers who compete well into their late teens and sometimes twenties–if showjumping was so bad for the horse, you would think they would break down quicker. Also, Hunters are not allowed to put any protection on their horses’ legs when jumping–which greatly increases the risk for injury. All jumper riders worth their salt teach their horses to move properly and on the bit–even though it’s not a criteria for Jumpers. I’ve seen hunters be penalized for being on the bit–the classic hunter look says that the horse’s nse should poke out and they should keep an even pace throughout the course. If the horse only has to canter around at the same pace with their nose out, they never have to learn to adjust their stride. Jumpers need to be adjustable at all times in order to get their turns and changes right.
I agree that, in the lower levels of jumpers, it is possible to get around a course and leave all the fences up without any real skill. But anything of 4′ is a different story entirely. Also, if you are criticizing Jumper riders, you are criticizing all the riders who have ever represented and will ever represent the United States of America in the Olympic Games. And if you think you’re better than all of those riders, you have an unbelieveable amount of arrogance and it’s just a matter of time before it bites you in the ass. Also, there are no Hunter classes in Germany–which is the leading country in horsemanship in the entire world. They have more awards and medals than any other country and riding is a government-sponsored sport in Germany. If Hunters were so wonderful, you think the Germans would pick it up. Yet the don’t. They think Hunters is a big joke. Which it is.

By Amanda on Jun 6, 2008 | Reply

The whole German thing actually isn’t true. My cousin just moved here from Germany - and she did 3′6 Hunter shows over there.

About the whole way of going Hunter is - I believe its still way better than Jumper. Hunter goes around in a smooth way - not slow, not the same pace - but smooth.

And Im not saying Im better than the Olympic riders. Ha. Fuck I know Im not. Even though they are Jumpers - I think they are better. But just because your a jumper, and your not in the Olympics - people tend to believe they are still better than Hunters - simply because Jumpers are in the Olympics.

Plus - Jackie isn’t talking about Equitation. She’s talking about Hunters. The show I’ve been too - you don’t just sit there and lope around the courses. Of course - we don’t speed through there like crazy people on our horses - but we still adjust our strides. Even at the Hunter Schooling Shows - in the 2′ I see kids adjusting their strides to each line.

By Jackie on Jun 6, 2008 | Reply

Okay I’m not criticizing people who jump in the olypimcs. I’m just saying that before you go telling everyone that hunter is not a real sport may you should try it. Too all the people out there before you say that hunters are just stepping stones to riding. Then maybe you should try going to a real hunter show and talk to some hunter jumpers there. Jumpers are just horses and riders who couldn’t handle the hunter areana. If you have a problem with hunter then keep it to yourself, remeber alot of people do hunter. OH and people in Germany do ride hunter. It just over in Europe they pay bigger for show jumpers.

By Kay on Jun 6, 2008 | Reply

Jackie, if you had been paying attention to my earlier posts you would know that I rode strictly Hunters and Equitation for 5 years (all through high school and 1 year in college before I got bored of it). I was programmed by some of the most well-renouned hunter trainers in North America. I went to every single A rated Hunter show on the west coast and showed in the Short Stirrup, Long Stirrup, Pre-Adult, Pre-Childrens, Childrens and Adult Amateur divisions. I’m not speaking from inexperience by any means. I’ve never in my life met a German rider who spoke highly of Hunters.

Also Amanda and Jackie are yet to refute my claim that show jumpers compete longer, live longer and have less soundness issues than Hunters.

And there’s a reason why people pay more for Jumpers than Hunters in Europe—IT’S BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT JUMPERS ARE BETTER THAN HUNTERS!

Jackie, I am full aware that a lot of people do Hunters. It makes up the majority of all the classes at Hunter/Jumper shows in this country. You are your people are conformists–everybody does Hunters. But what’s popular is not always right and what’s right is not always popular. I did not write this article but I stand behind the people who did. And I stand behind my fellow Jumper riders who are repeatedly looked down upon, admonished and criticized by the masses of mainstream, uncreative, and mindless drones who seem to think Hunter riding is great because it’s safer than any other form of jumping and, above all, because their trainer told them so.

I appreciate Jackie and Amanda’s attempts to “defend” their fellow conformists, but their arguments are full of holes and do not hold water. Also, defending the establishment that is hunter riding is equal to defending a giant oil company against the war-torn nations it raped and pillaged in order to line it’s own pockets. There are hundreds of magazines and articles out there that praise hunters and only one that exposes it for what it truly is. You can’t blame a minority of downtrodden people for trying to defend themselves.

By Kay on Jun 7, 2008 | Reply

Sorry I got sidetracked. I am sort of a Jumper zealot. Hunters may very well be fun for some, but it should not be considered a sport and lumped in with other non-judgemental, objective sports. I strayed from the main argument. I too would like to see Jackie or Amanda defend the judging in the Hunter ring with a real, mature argument. Saying that jumper riders “look like crap” does not qualify. That’s like a lawyer telling a judge that their client is not guilty of assault because the other guy is a “poo poo head”.

By Jackie on Jun 7, 2008 | Reply

Thank you for understanding, I respect and also love to watch jumpers. I think what you do is really cool. But I would like for you to respect hunters. I know that some of the judges can be unfair, but not all of them.

By Jackie on Jun 7, 2008 | Reply

Okay forget that first commet I hadn’t read the whole post.

The reason why we talk the way we do is because were mad. We beleive that hunters should be accepted as a sport. You would be mad too if someone said that jumper is not a sport. But as Amanda said its because show jumping is in the Olympics.

We may have some bad judges but that doesn’t mean that all of the judges are bad. If you really want to try the hunter judging system then you should try showing over on the East Coast.

I think that your problem is that you just don’t like it that hunter is based on how well you and your horse preform. Instead of how fast you can get around a course and if you knock any down.
You have your opinions and we have ours. Just because a minority of people say that hunter is not a sport doesn’t mean that its not. You’re just basing you opinion on how it is judged, instead on how it is done.

By Kay on Jun 7, 2008 | Reply

I’ve never met a hunter judge that I felt judged anybody fairly and objectively. Usually, the class is pinned before anyone rides the course. What I love about jumpers is that you can win a class simply by showing up and doing your very best. In the hunter ring, you can’t come to a show as an unknown and leave a champion–you have to have shown before, people have to know you well, the judges have to know you, you have to be with the right barn, the right rumors have to have been spread about you, etc. So much of winning in the Hunter ring is done before anybody ever enters the ring. Therefore, people are not being judged objectively. It’s more like Ballet or competitive cheerleading than Soccer, Basketball, Swimming, Boxing, or other olympic-caliber sports events. A Ballerina may be able to execute all the dance moves necessary to win a competition but will never win if she is 5′10″ and 200 pounds. I think Hunters is great for people who like to be judged by others. But I don’t think it promotes athleticism, so it cannot be considered a sport if there is no athleticism involved. I got into Jumpers because I didn’t want to be judged anymore. I did Hunters, breed shows and Dressage and just was looking for a way to compete without having to appeal to other people. I compete to challenge myself and my horse–and I could care less what other people think about me. I also am too frugal to pay twice as much for board just to be in the “right” barn with the “right” trainer in order to win. Therefore, I don’t think Hunters has done anything to earn my respect. And, Jackie, you didn’t think what I did was “really cool” a few days ago–you said I “rode like crap”. Make up your mind and stick with it.

By Jackie on Jun 8, 2008 | Reply

Excuse me for saying this but I think that you are wrong. Just because you have never met the right trainger doesn’t mean you have the right to say that hunter is not a sport. Yes we focus on what the rider and horse look like together, but we also judge on how the horse preformes and how you best show them off.

You said that it is not a althletic sport but isn’t any form of riding and althletic sport. I think that you’re main problem is that you just don’t care for hunters. Because that judge unfairly.

You know what I’am very tired of having to tell someone that just because YOU don’t think that it’s fair doesn’t mean that it is. In all sports there will be some judges that judge unfairly. It doesn’t matter if it’s horseback riding.

I also think that your problem is, is that you prefer the sports that judge you on you athleticism instead on how they look like. Well since that is your opinion hears a thought just keep it to yourself, not everyone wants to keep on listing to it.

By Kay on Jun 8, 2008 | Reply

Jackie,

Not all sports have judges that judge unfairly. In fact, the most popular sports in the United States don’t even HAVE judges–Basketball, Football, Soccer, Swimming, Track. There are referees to make sure nobody hurts anybody else or breaks the rules. And it’s not that I want to be judged on my athleticism–I don’t want to be judged AT ALL. Jumpers have people to track the time and make sure you go through the timers, wait for the buzzer and don’t knock down rails or have refusals.
You may feel that Hunters are fair but that doesn’t mean that it actually is. You may want to consult a dictionary definition of fairness and then compare it to the definition of judgement and then apply those definitions to Hunters and determine whether or not the definitions apply to Hunters in ALL CASES AND CIRCUMSTANCES. Just so you know, I feel the same way about Hunters as I feel about Gymnastics. Two Gymnasts can do the same routine but one will place higher sheerly because the judges liked her/him better.
I will continue to debate this issue until I feel that I have been adequately proven wrong. It’s entirely your decision to listen or not. Nobody is forcing you to debate me.

By Jackie on Jun 9, 2008 | Reply

No nobod is forcing me. But since YOU don’t want to be judge thats fine for you. Not everyone has to be like you. We have our own opinions and I would like for you to respect the fact that hunter do judge on how the horse and rider look. If you don’t like then fine you don’t like it. But I don’t see how you have the right to call hunter not a sport.

By Bonnie on Jun 9, 2008 | Reply

LOL! I’ve ridden hunters for 20 years and totally agree. When I first started riding hunters it was much different than it is now. The judging system is horrible these days. I don’t enter a hunter ring anymore, I just show jumpers and maybe eventing soon.

I have one retired hunter who was my A/O hunter and did well in the regular working hunters many, many years ago. The scene is much different now and the competition isn’t fairly judged. There is much to say for a horse and rider that can go around a hunter course and ride great. But, it doesn’t matter how good you ride now. It’s the clothes your wearing, the trainer you have, and the brand on your horse.

There is a new hunter division that is really cool and hopefully will revitalize the hunter discipline. I can’t remember what it is called, but it’s like derby hunters. Much more technical and field hunter like. Almost a cross between hunters/equitation/jumpers. I would check it out and if all the judges were fired and new ones hired, I would consider riding in that division.

BTW, I have shown extensively on the East Coast. It’s all the same honey, bad judging across the country.

By Kay on Jun 10, 2008 | Reply

Jackie, as a citizen of the united states of america I have a right to speak my mind whenever I want. I also have the right to give my respect to thoses things that I feel deserve my respect and withhold my respect from things that I don’t feel are deserving of it. I feel I have re-iterated my original argument many times. If you feel you need reasons for why I believe Hunters is not a sport, you may consult my previous postings. This argument has reached a dead end and I feel no new ideas or arguments are coming from either of us. It’s become the equivalent of the “are not-are too” arguments often seen by elementary school children on the playground–and these sorts of arguments should be left to people much younger than I who have yet to learn how to correctly structure an argument or debate an issue. It is my belief and the belief of my colleagues that I have presented a more structured, logical, objective and reasonable argument than you have. What I respect or don’t respect isn’t really at issue here. What’s at issue is whether or not hunters and their judging can be qualified as a “sport” when held to the standards of other non-equestrian sports. If I were you, I would have made attempts to compare Hunters to other judged sports–that would have been more convincing than trying to justify it as is. I also might have cited how many top-level jumper riders excelled in hunters before moving on to jumpers–that also may have increased it’s validity. I guess I was waiting for you to really present me with some irrefutable evidence or a sound and well-researched argument. Unfortunately, this has not happened and I am, frankly, bored and feel unchallenged by the arguments you have presented me with. So I am discontinuing my involvement in debates with you.

By Jackie on Jun 11, 2008 | Reply

Very well then, I do know that as a citizen you have your rights. But still that does not say that just because you do not like the sport doesn’t mean that other people do not like to sport. You’re entiteled to your opinions and I’m entitled to mine. So lets just leave it at that.

By Cara on Jun 18, 2008 | Reply

Kay you poor thing! Hunters is not a true sport. The day I see a hunter rider do a 90degree turn in a course ill pee my pants… sorry girls but if you think your doing a 90 degree turn in a hunter course then you a truly not doing one.. rollbacks ive seen few and far between. Plus in a hunter ring you jump the roll back in the middle straight then turn and do your pretty little cirle to your next fence… jumpers know how to jump their horse on an angle to get to the next jump within strides… You know in hunters you can school 3-4 times before your course and practice 30 thousand times over those fences to ensure your picture perfect little pony will jump them so you can look “perfect” to the judge… Jumpers you have schooling jumps the first time your horse sees the course is when he/she is in mid air over the fences..please take a hunter to an event or a jumper show and tell me how you do? Hunters are what they are…eventing is what it is…. jumpers are what they are….

By Kay on Jun 20, 2008 | Reply

Thanks cara!

By Keren on Jun 21, 2008 | Reply

>>And there’s a reason why people pay more for Jumpers than Hunters in Europe—IT’S BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT JUMPERS ARE BETTER THAN HUNTERS!<<

You can’t compare American ‘Hunters’ and American ‘Jumpers’ with anything in Europe because we don’t have anything that resembles those show classes in Europe.

European Hunters are a TYPE of horse (just as a stock horse is a type of horse). They are SPORT HORSES. In fact, they are the *original* sporthorse - the Hunters’ Improvement Society (now Sporthorse Breeders of Great Britain) is the world’s oldest sport horse association. Likewise, they are also the original warmblood: sizeable, upstanding animals with excellent conformation and the ability to jump obstacles that are big, wide and tricky with confidence and safety.

From what I have seen of ‘hunters’ in the US, they would not get within a sniff of the ribbons in Europe. Our Hunters are expected to live up to their name - yes, they actually go out and follow hounds across country. Now *that* is a sport - it requires initiative, bravery, judgement and skill, all exerted on the spot, in unforeseen circumstances and over solid obstacles, not fiddling round a course of low knock down jumps in the safety of a show ring. I’d like to see “Jackie” try a day out with our local hunt - maybe then she’d understand what ‘hunter’ and ’sport’ really mean.

In Europe, jumping is under FEI rules. It isn’t a “showing” class as it is in the US. It IS a sport. And since hunting is where most showjumpers and eventers (human AND equine) get their basic education, saying that “in Europe jumpers are better than hunters” means nothing - a good hunter generally makes a good showjumper

By Jeremy on Jul 10, 2008 | Reply

My wife and I spend a fair amount of time at our local hunter shows. They’ve been fun–we get to spend time together with our horses and friends while working some riding fundamentals and training. We’re not our for ribbons and we’re not going to the Olympics anytime soon, but that’s not our goal. We have horses because we love horses, and so we can get away from the BS that makes the daily grind frustrating.

Having participated in sports (baseball, rugby, wrestling, swimming and soccer) my entire life, I understand the point about the judges or referees being subjective. There is room for unfairness and missed or wrong calls, but also room for recognizing the subtle nuances that allow the sports to be what they should be: complex, challenging and enjoyable.

One comment: Everyone believes their discipline is the best or the most challenging. If you do well in your discipline, you should be proud, and it seems many of you are. This is evidenced by the postings here

But, how about if you don’t like the other disciplines, don’t participate. Granted, there are valid ethical discussions that should be had concerning certain equestrian disciplines, but here I’m only talking about pure, personal preference.

One question: Citizen K., what sports do you see as valid? I would assert that refereed sports would certainly qualify as ‘judged.’ Referees evaluate painted lines and written rules, but also context and intent. While they’re not called ‘judges’, referees’ subjective calls and decisions–whether judging a ‘line out,’ ‘personal foul,’ ‘tying up’ or ‘foul ball’–can decide the entire game or match.

Besides, if we eliminate the “judged” equestrian sports, all we’d have left is trail riding, which, truth be told, would eliminate the difficult and controversial ethics discussions, the avoidable equine and rider deaths and injuries, and unite the equestrian community under a common ‘discipline.’

Happy Riding to all y’all,

Jeremy in NC

By Jeremy on Jul 10, 2008 | Reply

Sorry–in the third sentence I meant “We’re not OUT for ribbons.”

J

By Kay on Jul 10, 2008 | Reply

Keren,

I’ve seen European hunters and I wholeheartedly agree that the American hunters don’t hold a candle to them.

Jeremy,

I know the kind of local shows your talking about and there are a few in my area like that. It doesn’t really feel like a competition though. It’s more of a tailgate party/BBQ with some jumping and ribbons thrown in. The ones I’ve been to are populated by middle-aged people new to riding and who mainly own bay thoroughbreds–horses who wouldn’t win in an A show hunter ring (through no fault of their own). Fun? yes. Competitive? no.

By Paige on Jul 13, 2008 | Reply

In my opinion it doesn’t really matter riding is riding. You have your opinion and other people have theirs. If you don’t like hunter then fine you don’t like hunter.

Yes we judge on how the horse and rider looks like. But jumpers are not all the athletic as you say. A green rider can probably ride in a jumper show and win, while they’ll probably have to show at there skill level in a hunter ring.

By Olive G. on Aug 11, 2008 | Reply

AMEN! I loved this article! it’s soooo true! I know a little girl about 9 or 10 who rode in a hunter course perfectly clean, while someone literally stopped in the middle of the ring and tried to remember her course for 15 MINUTES and then finally finished her course, and others had refusuls and poles knocked down etc! the little girl who went clean got 4th while the retarded course girl placed BEFORE her! I mean what the heck are these “judges” smokin’?? EVENTING RULES! at least we know how to ride and judge!

By Paige on Aug 13, 2008 | Reply

~Sighs~ Just because she rode a clean course doesn’t mean that the judge liked what s/he saw. The retarted rider probably looked like what the horse and rider combo the s/he prefered. Every judge is different

By Kay on Aug 13, 2008 | Reply

Paige, every judge is different. Exactly.

By Morgan on Aug 21, 2008 | Reply

I’m sorry if I’m just adding to this nonsense, but I feel that Jumpers is harder than hunters. I’ve done both and hunters seems like a breeze compared to jumpers. I have competively shown in B and C rated shows and won yet the few times I’ve done jumper classes I’ve been completely knocked on my butt. Hunter seems like a good foundation to riding but I feel that it is quite simple and I’m sure that there are some die hard hunters out there to disagee with me but that’s how I feel.
And the sport is completely dependent upon what a judge feels and many judges are biased. So I’ll just stick to my lower level eventing–it seems fun enough!

By Kay on Aug 21, 2008 | Reply

Thanks Morgan! I would probably do lower-level eventing if I didn’t have olympic goals. I could NEVER do 4 star events!